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Author Topic: Help: Worshipping at an Indepedent Chapel?  (Read 13066 times)

Scriptorium

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Re: Help: Worshipping at an Indepedent Chapel?
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2013, 09:25:am »
Concerning the Monsignor title, a sermon he gave soon after said it was a loop hole for the Knights of Malta, that they do not need to submit it to the Pope. In my mind I don't really care much about this issue. It's only a title of honor, and I was there when the bishop did it, so I don't really see the need to press the issue much. Plus it would be highly rude to go about like this with a priest. I am not one to go around questioning someone unless I have strong evidence and strong reasons. Now that there is a Monsignor with ICK -- Monsignor Wach -- who was Fr's superior, but apparently that was held in contention and he is no longer regarded as that. Then Fr Perez was vice rector of their seminary in Gricigliano, so he wasn't small potatoes. Related to this is the fact that he was involved with the expulsion of a member (http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/060703). Dr Drolesky added in his write-up, "[Fr Perez] told us that he was ordained for the Institute of Christ the King, but wound up being marginalized within that community as a result of the machinations of a priest who later wound up serving time in prison for molestation. He was told by his superiors to await his next assignment, which never came. Letters sent to Florence, Italy, were never answered. Father Perez told us, 'What was I supposed to do? Go out and get a job. I'm a priest. I've been ordained to celebrate Mass.' Thus, Father Perez started to celebrate daily Mass in his trailer in Santa Ana, California, working closely with a Father Frederick Schell, S.J., to offer the Mass on Fridays at an academy, the Padre Pio Academy, that had been established by Father Schell in Garden Grove, California." (http://www.shaneau.com/FrFredSchell_Tribute.htm). This priest was probably Fr Timothy Svea (http://www.bishopaccountability.org/assign/Svea_Timothy_E.htm and http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news3/2002_02_26_Paulsen_PriestSentenced_Timothy_Svea_2.htm). Beyond this is speculation, but I can see how he could have been in line for further promotion within ICK, and how this could have been derailed because of certain people and certain crimes. (Any connections are speculation. I do not know any of the facts here, but just what these public words say.) Monsignor said that Msgr Wach was able to stop this title being given once before, so the life of a priest is complicated. Trads are not exempt from politicking and power struggles. But since the Monsignor thing, he hasn't changed. So I've not seen any pride thing going on.

As for the workings of the Knights of Malta, I do not follow it and don't particularly care. The website is out of date, and I figure if a bishop wants to do what Bishop Mar Thomas is doing, fine. I also don't particularly care about lineage. This stuff doesn't factor into my decision. The Knights of Malta has no presence in our chapel in terms of spirituality or anything. Besides OSJ behind his name, Monsignor hasn't spoken about it.

More feedback would be welcome. I don't just want to discuss the peculiarities of these priests and what-not, but more about what your opinions are about going there, etc. I know that I will never be in a perfect place in which the priest 100% agrees with me on every issue. Humans have their own ideas. As long as doctrine is correct, the Mass is said well, and the parish is at peace, then I can't fault a priest for having his own peculiarities.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 12:57:pm by Scriptorium »
Had your law not been my delight,
 I would have died in my affliction.

Ps 119:92

nmoerbeek

Re: Help: Worshipping at an Indepedent Chapel?
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2013, 12:53:pm »
Script,

I think if you are asking the question you know in your heart that you should leave.  In fact I think you know the arguments for leaving better than I could explain them. 

You should leave for this one reason

It is a sin to go to Mass there because Mass and the Sacraments are being celebrated Illegally, it is not a sin to go to Mass at the 7 other venues  (Pope John Paul II Center, St John the Baptist, St Thomas More, San Juan Capistrano, St Marys by the Sea, St Micheals Abbey, Our Lady of the Annunciation (not to mention the Maronites as well))  in the Diocese that offer reverent Masses.

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Scriptorium

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Re: Help: Worshipping at an Indepedent Chapel?
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2013, 12:56:pm »
Script,

I think if you are asking the question you know in your heart that you should leave.  In fact I think you know the arguments for leaving better than I could explain them. 

You should leave for this one reason

It is a sin to go to Mass there because Mass and the Sacraments are being celebrated Illegally, it is not a sin to go to Mass at the 7 other venues  (Pope John Paul II Center, St John the Baptist, St Thomas More, San Juan Capistrano, St Marys by the Sea, St Micheals Abbey, Our Lady of the Annunciation (not to mention the Maronites as well))  in the Diocese that offer reverent Masses.

Have you been to any of the others? I've been to JPII. PM me with your take, if you don't mind.
Had your law not been my delight,
 I would have died in my affliction.

Ps 119:92

Scriptorium

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Re: Help: Worshipping at an Indepedent Chapel?
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2013, 03:50:pm »
I was greatly influenced in asking these question from reading these articles. Perhaps they can spark discussion too. His situation is SSPX, but I would like to keep it to the general topic of "outside of the official structure". His reasoning is very good.

http://thesensiblebond.blogspot.com/p/why-i-left-sspx-milieu.html
http://thesensiblebond.blogspot.com/2012/11/o-my-prophetic-soul.html
http://thesensiblebond.blogspot.com/2012/06/truth-and-authority-what-next-for-sspx.html
Had your law not been my delight,
 I would have died in my affliction.

Ps 119:92

Old Salt

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Re: Help: Worshipping at an Indepedent Chapel?
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2013, 04:39:pm »
Sir,

I would say that if it is possible get to a parish that offers the sacraments legally and validly.

I know that the majority of priests who do not have a canonical mission cannot validly absolve sins.

The primary reason one has to consider, as you well know, is the salvation of ones soul and those entrusted to him.
For this reason it is extremely important to be juridically united to your terriotorial Ordinary or an Ordinary that has a Canonical mission.
Don't forget to pray for the dead.


Freudentaumel

Re: Help: Worshipping at an Indepedent Chapel?
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2013, 04:45:pm »
Now that there is a Monsignor with ICK -- Monsignor Wach -- who was Fr's superior,
If you are referring to my post, I am aware of that, but neither Fr. Wach nor Msgr. Schmitz were members of the ICK when they were made Monsignors. That's why I said ordained and still in an Ecclesia Dei community.

Regarding the general topic I think it it hard to give direct advice. While I have never assisted at a non-recognized Mass, I think that there may be situations where such could be justified. But only you yourself can evaluate that situation (I.e. is there really no other alternative, would alternatives be damaging to the (faith of) the family,...). This does not only include evaluating the alternatives, but also the independent Chapel (i.e. is there a schismatic trajectory, I think Ches has it right in his articles regarding the SSPX; would the children learn that it is normal to be Catholic and disregard the pope/hierarchy, etc.).
I would be very careful regarding confessions and faculties, assisting at Mass is another question.
"What you make with our Lord?" -Bishop Athanasius Schneider

jovan66102

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Re: Help: Worshipping at an Indepedent Chapel?
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2013, 04:50:pm »
Concerning the Monsignor title, a sermon he gave soon after said it was a loop hole for the Knights of Malta, that they do not need to submit it to the Pope. In my mind I don't really care much about this issue. It's only a title of honor, and I was there when the bishop did it, so I don't really see the need to press the issue much.

So you are not concerned that your pastor uses a fraudulent title to which he has no right, bestowed outside canonical channels because of his affiliation with a fake 'order' that has its roots in the 'Grand Mastership' of a schismatic? Wow! :O
Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

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newyorkcatholic

Re: Help: Worshipping at an Indepedent Chapel?
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2013, 04:53:pm »
I think it is not that complicated, and it's possible that considering various factors (the title of monsignor, the Eastern bishop, the previosu ordinary, the current ordinary) all makes things needlessly confused.

The bottom line is the question, what justifies being outside the official structure? What justifies disobedience? Or what is true obedience?  All variations on a theme.

Frankly even if 50 Eastern Rite bishops loved this priest and garlanded his neck, and the current ordinary was a Mahoney type or even a Weakland type -- or if the other way around this was an extremist place that attracted some real loonies and the ordinary established many TLMs and was trad-leaning -- or any situation in between, the question is the same.

For me, no matter those other issues, if there is a valid and licit TLM, I will go there instead of the valid and illicit TLM, if that is possible.

Correction: one issue does matter - your wife's feelings on this. If she is okay with going to a licit TLM, I would. If not, I would work on a compromise with her. If you make a sudden change and it causes division in the family, that's no good.
One human thought alone is worth more than the entire world, hence God alone is worthy of it. -- St. John of the Cross

OCLittleFlower

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Re: Help: Worshipping at an Indepedent Chapel?
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2013, 05:26:pm »
I'm an ex-parishoner of St. John the Baptist, now attending OLHC -- sending you a PM.
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Scriptorium

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Re: Help: Worshipping at an Indepedent Chapel?
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2013, 05:49:pm »
I'm an ex-parishoner of St. John the Baptist, now attending OLHC -- sending you a PM.

Thought you were up north.  ???
Had your law not been my delight,
 I would have died in my affliction.

Ps 119:92


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