Choose style:

Author Topic: Correcting the Novus Ordo  (Read 6220 times)

JayneK

  • GFH
  • Member
  • Posts: 15,419
  • Gender: Female
  • with my grandsons
Correcting the Novus Ordo
« on: February 17, 2013, 06:34:pm »
My position is that the NO is a valid, licit, Catholic Mass, but it has serious problems.  For a long time now I've been saying the problems are so serious that it should be abrogated.  But this interview with Bishop Fellay has me reconsidering that: 
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/02/fellay-i-thought-that-with-his.html
The whole thing is interesting but here are the quotes that got me thinking about this:
Quote
Some say that you wish Rome to recognize that the ordinary rite is illicit; can you tell us more on this point?

We know very well that it is very difficult to ask the authorities to condemn the new mass. In reality, if what needs to be corrected were corrected, it would already be a big step.
and
Quote
Would you like to say anything about Vatican II?

As far as Vatican II is concerned, just like for the Mass, we believe that it is necessary to clarify and correct a certain number of points that are either erroneous or lead to error. That being said, we do not expect Rome to condemn Vatican II any time soon. She can recall the Truth and discretely correct the errors, while preserving her authority.

This makes so much sense.  It is not realistic to expect the NO to be abrogated.  It may even be harmful because it could damage the authority of Rome.  It really could shake many people's faith to have an announcement from the Vatican that they had been using a bad Mass for the last 40 years. 

Anyhow, this got me thinking about what needs to be corrected in the NO.  The first things that jumped to my mind were replacing the NO Offertory with the one from the TLM and replacing the Good Friday prayer for the Jews with something clearly orthodox.

I know that some people are not willing to accept any Mass other than the TLM, but for those willing to run with this idea from Bishop Fellay, what corrections would you make to the NO?





ADORABLE Saviour, consider my many wants, and grant me those graces which Thou knowest I stand in need of to do Thy will in all things.

James02

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,935
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correcting the Novus Ordo
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2013, 07:06:pm »
I currently suffer through it while on the road.  It is Pascal's wager, if you will.  However I discovered it is a good time to get some rosaries in.

It is funny because the church is a church-in-the-round big top circus style layout.  So the first time I went, I went in the last pew on the very end of the semi-circle.  That was to escape the ridiculous hand shake and Our Father hand holding.  Anyhow, I seem to have attracted fellow misanthropes, and now my secluded section has a group.

Anyhow, miraculously I noticed that when I get out into the aisle from my pew in the hinterland, I am directly facing the Tabernacle, which of course is off to the side.  So I can genuflect towards Jesus.  And off to the side is a picture of Our Lady of Perpetual Help.  Nice touch.

After that intro, I'll answer your question.  First and foremost the priest MUST face Jesus during Mass.  The Tabernacle MUST be at the center, behind the altar, and the Priest should not stand mooning the Lord.  In the N.O. church I go to, the priest has chosen to put Jesus off to the side.  I'd probably do the same thing as I don't see how a priest can stand there mooning the Lord.  So,
1.  Priest returns to facing the Lord during Mass whose Tabernacle is at the center.

That is probably the most crucial.  Here are some others:
2.  Suppress communion under bother species, as it is spreading heresy.
3.  No women infesting the sanctuary.
4.  Eliminate communion in the grubby paw.
5.  Communion received kneeling only, ie restore the rail.
6.  Enforce the still binding rule that women must veil.
7.  At the end of Mass, when the priest says the blessing, the people kneel.  This posture was purposefully changed to diminish the role of priest and turn him into a presider.
"God's Wrath is Glorious, and I have a front row seat"

"We can not guarantee success.  We can only deserve it."

"And who do you say that I Am?"
"That one simple question, whether Jesus of Nazareth was God Incarnate, becomes increasingly decisive between people, as history moves forward. .... The answer to this question cuts into human ties and seems to reflect even on the nature of inanimate things.  What if:  all that is folly in the eyes of the Greeks, and scandal in the eyes of the Jews, ... is Truth?"

And there was no doubt about it -- towards Him we had been running, or from Him we had been running away, but all the time He had been in the center of things.

DoktorDespot

  • Member
  • Posts: 393
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correcting the Novus Ordo
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2013, 07:38:pm »
I think more focus should be put on correcting how the NO is celebrated versus changing specific prayers. Ad orientem celebration, adherence to the rubrics, etc would all go along way.

In my city there is a parish that has a Solemn Novus Ordo mass every Sunday. The mass is entirely in chant in Latin (except for the lessons,) while the Schola chants the proper antiphons for the introit offertory and communion. Incense is used, there are no altar girls, the readings are all done by a man in cassock and surplice, communion is only given on the tongue kneeling at an altar rail. The sign of peace is not performed by the congregation (it's not required by the GIRM,) the Roman canon is used exclusively etc.  The preaching is all orthodox Catholicism (including condemnation of "human respect" and false religions.) The congregation is also very enthusiastic about chanting the kyrie, gloria, etc.  So to answer your question, if every NO mass was like this, I think that the liturgical life of the Church would be in good shape.
" Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! "

JayneK

  • GFH
  • Member
  • Posts: 15,419
  • Gender: Female
  • with my grandsons
Re: Correcting the Novus Ordo
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2013, 07:40:pm »
7.  At the end of Mass, when the priest says the blessing, the people kneel.  This posture was purposefully changed to diminish the role of priest and turn him into a presider.

That's interesting that you say that. Lately, when I am at the NO, I have been kneeling for the blessing.   I did not really think it through; I just went with my feelings.  
ADORABLE Saviour, consider my many wants, and grant me those graces which Thou knowest I stand in need of to do Thy will in all things.

DoktorDespot

  • Member
  • Posts: 393
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correcting the Novus Ordo
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2013, 07:48:pm »
7.  At the end of Mass, when the priest says the blessing, the people kneel.  This posture was purposefully changed to diminish the role of priest and turn him into a presider.

That's interesting that you say that. Lately, when I am at the NO, I have been kneeling for the blessing.   I did not really think it through; I just went with my feelings.  

Explain to me how the people not kneeling turns the priest into a presider. I agree that we should kneel, but you are going to have to explain this one to me. Anyway, I have seen plenty of people (particularly in Hispanic communities) kneeling for the blessing.
" Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! "


James02

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,935
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correcting the Novus Ordo
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2013, 08:18:pm »
Quote
That's interesting that you say that. Lately, when I am at the NO, I have been kneeling for the blessing.   I did not really think it through; I just went with my feelings. 
Same here.  Funny thing, sometime when I do it, a few others reflexively kneel.  Maybe I'll start people questioning.

Quote
Explain to me how the people not kneeling turns the priest into a presider.
  First, the Traditional posture during the Mass has always been to kneel at the last blessing.  So THIS WAS PURPOSEFULLY CHANGED.  My question is why?

It is simple.  The "power to bless" has been diminished in the way it is presented, again to make the prot heretics feel at home.  Instead the last blessing becomes more of a prayer by a presider.

Observe a Trad parish where someone asks a priest for his blessing.  He will kneel for that blessing, because he is receiving special graces that can only come from a priest.  In the N.O. Mass, it is turned into a prayer that anyone could say.  Heck, Pat the lesbo reader could give you a prayer blessing.  Same thing as the presider. 
"God's Wrath is Glorious, and I have a front row seat"

"We can not guarantee success.  We can only deserve it."

"And who do you say that I Am?"
"That one simple question, whether Jesus of Nazareth was God Incarnate, becomes increasingly decisive between people, as history moves forward. .... The answer to this question cuts into human ties and seems to reflect even on the nature of inanimate things.  What if:  all that is folly in the eyes of the Greeks, and scandal in the eyes of the Jews, ... is Truth?"

And there was no doubt about it -- towards Him we had been running, or from Him we had been running away, but all the time He had been in the center of things.

loggats

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,025
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correcting the Novus Ordo
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2013, 08:20:pm »
Women "infesting" the sanctuary? Really?
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Behold, I make all things new.

The Curt Jester

  • Member
  • Member
  • Posts: 2,926
  • Gender: Male
  • Trad before the term "neo-trad" was invented
Re: Correcting the Novus Ordo
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2013, 08:21:pm »
Women "infesting" the sanctuary? Really?

They're also known to infest choir lofts.  Just ask HK.   :grin:
The one thing perfect about the human being is the brain.  Everyone knows that nothing could ever be wrong with it.

St. Gabriel Possenti, pray for us!
St. Adrian of Nicomedia, pray for us!
St. Hubert, pray for us!
St. Sebastian, pray for us!

James02

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,935
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correcting the Novus Ordo
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2013, 08:26:pm »
Today, we had an altar girl, female reader, and two women with the chalices.  Looked like an infestation to me, considering they have no business being up there.
"God's Wrath is Glorious, and I have a front row seat"

"We can not guarantee success.  We can only deserve it."

"And who do you say that I Am?"
"That one simple question, whether Jesus of Nazareth was God Incarnate, becomes increasingly decisive between people, as history moves forward. .... The answer to this question cuts into human ties and seems to reflect even on the nature of inanimate things.  What if:  all that is folly in the eyes of the Greeks, and scandal in the eyes of the Jews, ... is Truth?"

And there was no doubt about it -- towards Him we had been running, or from Him we had been running away, but all the time He had been in the center of things.

loggats

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,025
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correcting the Novus Ordo
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2013, 08:35:pm »
Women "infesting" the sanctuary? Really?

They're also known to infest choir lofts.  Just ask HK.   :grin:

Fairly sure HK is pining for the days of castrati (accidental or not.. don't ask don't tell) and pax-boards (sanitizing wipes optional?)

Though he doesn't like cottae, so that's something  :grin:
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Behold, I make all things new.