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Carthusian

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about homosexualty
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2006, 12:43:am »

Is it true that 90% of pedophile priests are homosexual?  I have heard this over and over on the radio, but I cannot find anything to support this claim. 


winoblue1

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about homosexualty
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2006, 05:04:am »
The reason this is claimed is because most victims are post puberty and male.
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LatinPassion

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about homosexualty
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2006, 08:22:am »
I agree with miss fluffy, no one of you could ever understand what a homosexual goes through. Its easy for people to say its morally wrong yada yada, but like Camp said its a cross they carry. I am not condoning the act, but what one does not know one should hold ones tongue. I know a few of them some who are more liberal than others. I would assume that many on the forum assume that gay men for example are all feminine, but the fact of the matter is there are many whom are just as masculine as any heterosexual male. I am blessed with empathy and what those tormented souls go through I would wish on no one. As mentioned earlier charity and prayer is what is needed. To plainly put it gay sex is comfort sex. Many of them look for that love that they cannot grasp, that's the same problem a prostitute goes through. Many times this is based on rejection by ones peers, and they look for those who are as tormented or misguided as they are. How can we expect for a tormented soul to change if all we do is continually do is throw stones. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. If we the church pushed ourselves we could help them. Dominus tecum, I noticed in your post your level of empathy is at a low. I pose to you, and all others who may come across this thread that you try and put yourself in their shoes. Would you want the constant damning to hell or would you want charity offered to you. Seriously many of them do not want to be that way, but it happens. To say they should seek psycho therapy is to assume that they have that kind of money to spare.  Free therapy usually goes along the lines of everyone being all lovey dovey, and coming to terms with who you are etc., basically its conditioning. These therapies do not always work ie alcoholics anonymous, you're not guaranteed a cure. Blaming it on nuclear families is ludicrous, because many a time homosexuals are birthed in "perfect" 2 parent households. Chastity is the best possible option for them in this case that it is not able to be remedied. Demonology places Asmodeus as the cause for male homosexuality, consequently he's the demon in the book of Tobit. Unless people are planning to put all homosexuals in quarantine and start doing a mass exorcism, I doubt that'll happen. No one will ever know why homosexuality occurs, but to point and criticize is not the way to go. I am in no way condoning the act, but the point is no one will ever understand their crosses in this life. There are those who embrace it like those of Sodom and Gomorrah, but there are also those who do not want to be that way and struggle with it. Its a touchy subject, but I believe the church could do more instead of treating them like lepers. Come on now they're showing charity to the heretics and all other abominations, why not show them some level of charity. One does not have to accept the act in order to show them charity,as Camp mentioned prayer is necessary. The question then becomes will you become some bigot incapable of showing some level of charity or will you step up and do something to heal the wounds. Seriously I'm tired of hearing the responses that this is only a forum for us to voice ourselves blah blah blah, because then one is only left to assume the type of person you may be in our society. Some of us come off as pious people, some as penitents, but some of us on the board come off as Nazis with Napoleon complexes, compensating for power we wish we had over other people. I ask pardon of those on the board who are not like this, and of those whom may misinterpret my post and read into it searching for an argument.

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VoxClamantis

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about homosexualty
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2006, 09:08:am »

Quote from: LatinPassion
I agree with miss fluffy, no one of you could ever understand what a homosexual goes through.

 

I take it for granted that there are people at this forum who struggle with homosexual impulses. Everyone should; it's not as if those impulses are rare.

 

Quote
 Its easy for people to say its morally wrong yada yada, but like Camp said its a cross they carry. I am not condoning the act, but what one does not know one should hold ones tongue. I know a few of them some who are more liberal than others. I would assume that many on the forum assume that gay men for example are all feminine, but the fact of the matter is there are many whom are just as masculine as any heterosexual male. I am blessed with empathy and what those tormented souls go through I would wish on no one.

 

Dealing with individuals is one thing, and dealing with "the homosexual movement" is another. I have great empathy for the former, but none for the latter. As to "feminine" behaviors, some men are more "feminine" and some women are more "masculine." People should not try to stuff others so tightly into boxes, in my opinion.  

 

Quote
As mentioned earlier charity and prayer is what is needed. To plainly put it gay sex is comfort sex. Many of them look for that love that they cannot grasp, that's the same problem a prostitute goes through. Many times this is based on rejection by ones peers, and they look for those who are as tormented or misguided as they are. How can we expect for a tormented soul to change if all we do is continually do is throw stones.

 

I think it is those who are part of the homosexual movement that throw stones. On the other hand, there could be greater empathy and patience for individuals on the part of those who aren't a part of that movement or who don't suffer from those impulses, and a greater willingness to refrain from making assumptions about people (for ex., a man who likes to shop just "has" to be homosexual, right? And if he suffers from those impulses, he MUST be acting on them!" People need to chill out with judgments like that.)

 

Quote
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. If we the church pushed ourselves we could help them. Dominus tecum, I noticed in your post your level of empathy is at a low. I pose to you, and all others who may come across this thread that you try and put yourself in their shoes. Would you want the constant damning to hell or would you want charity offered to you. Seriously many of them do not want to be that way, but it happens. To say they should seek psycho therapy is to assume that they have that kind of money to spare. Free therapy usually goes along the lines of everyone being all lovey dovey, and coming to terms with who you are etc., basically its conditioning. These therapies do not always work ie alcoholics anonymous, you're not guaranteed a cure.

 

They'll have a hard time seeking therapy since the homosexual movement ensured that "homosexuality" was removed from the DSM. See the problem?

 

Quote
Blaming it on nuclear families is ludicrous, because many a time homosexuals are birthed in "perfect" 2 parent households.

 

I didn't see anyone blaming it on nuclear families, but the fact is that, whether they have one parent or two, there is quite often a typical family dynamic in place: strong mother, and passive, physically/emotionally absent father. It's not always like this, but it is typical. Take a naturally sensitive boy and put him in a situation like that, and you will likely have problems.

 

Quote
Chastity is the best possible option for them in this case that it is not able to be remedied.  Demonology places Asmodeus as the cause for male homosexuality, consequently he's the demon in the book of Tobit. Unless people are planning to put all homosexuals in quarantine and start doing a mass exorcism, I doubt that'll happen.

 

? You are coming out of left field, man.

 

Quote
No one will ever know why homosexuality occurs, but to point and criticize is not the way to go. I am in no way condoning the act, but the point is no one will ever understand their crosses in this life. There are those who embrace it like those of Sodom and Gomorrah, but there are also those who do not want to be that way and struggle with it. Its a touchy subject, but I believe the church could do more instead of treating them like lepers.

 

The Church treats them like lepers? That's about hilarious... The real problem is that homosexuality has been politicized: it's no longer seen as a matter of some people having struggles and personalities that don't fit the norm (and there is no doubt in my mind that people need to be more accepting of others who are a bit unique; the 1950s were way, way too stifling in this regard).. Now, however, we are being forced to believe that homosexuality is purely genetic, can't be helped, and that we'd all better start wearing rainbow sashes, pushing for declassifying active homosexuality as a sin, and sit around and do nothing while marriage itself is mocked. That sort of political action ticks people off, so if people are angry at the homosexual movement and those who cheer it on, there is good reason for it.

 

Quote

 Come on now they're showing charity to the heretics and all other abominations, why not show them some level of charity. One does not have to accept the act in order to show them charity,as Camp mentioned prayer is necessary. The question then becomes will you become some bigot incapable of showing some level of charity or will you step up and do something to heal the wounds. Seriously I'm tired of hearing the responses that this is only a forum for us to voice ourselves blah blah blah, because then one is only left to assume the type of person you may be in our society. Some of us come off as pious people, some as penitents, but some of us on the board come off as Nazis with Napoleon complexes, compensating for power we wish we had over other people. I ask pardon of those on the board who are not like this, and of those whom may misinterpret my post and read into it searching for an argument.

 

I am just not seeing where you are getting all this...


miss_fluffy

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about homosexualty
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2006, 09:20:am »

BTW, here is a really good resource about Catholics working to overcome homosexuality.  It has some good stories that highlight the struggles some people go through. www.couragerc.net

Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true.– Buddha

Note: According to this precept, I find that Buddhism is NOT true.  I have tested and judged many things, and the only Truth I have found is in God's One True Church: The Catholic Church.

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Catholic_Inertia

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about homosexualty
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2006, 10:12:am »
Quote from: LatinPassion
I agree with miss fluffy, no one of you could ever understand what a homosexual goes through. Its easy for people to say its morally wrong yada yada, but like Camp said its a cross they carry.

First, I reread Missfluffy's post, and nowhere did she state none of us could ever understand what a homosexual goes through.  Second, since it is your assertion that none of us could ever understand what a homosexual goes through, I'll address you directly.  Since when do homosexuals have the corner market on sexual depravity/sin?  Most of us have struggled with some form of sexual desire and living out that desire, it makes no difference if it's of the homosexual nature or heterosexual nature.

Quote
I am not condoning the act, but what one does not know one should hold ones tongue. I know a few of them some who are more liberal than others. I would assume that many on the forum assume that gay men for example are all feminine, but the fact of the matter is there are many whom are just as masculine as any heterosexual male. I am blessed with empathy and what those tormented souls go through I would wish on no one. As mentioned earlier charity and prayer is what is needed.

I'm glad you have empathy, but you are assuming no one else has empathy, based on what I do not know.  I have not witnessed anyone in this thread flame homosexuals.

Quote
To plainly put it gay sex is comfort sex. Many of them look for that love that they cannot grasp, that's the same problem a prostitute goes through. Many times this is based on rejection by ones peers, and they look for those who are as tormented or misguided as they are. How can we expect for a tormented soul to change if all we do is continually do is throw stones.

Again, who is throwing stones.  The only one I've witnessed throwing stones in this thread is  you.  As to the content of the above portion, the same can be said for just about any sinner.  The alcoholic drinks to fill a void, the permiscuous teenage girl may have sex with many partners seeking love she never got from her father, the sex addict continues to fill a void through sexual gratification, etc. 

Quote
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. If we the church pushed ourselves we could help them. Dominus tecum, I noticed in your post your level of empathy is at a low. I pose to you, and all others who may come across this thread that you try and put yourself in their shoes. Would you want the constant damning to hell or would you want charity offered to you. Seriously many of them do not want to be that way, but it happens.

How about we replace the pro-homosexual agenda with  the pedophile agenda gaining more and more attention?  They just want to be accepted and the ability to have sex with their desired object without anyone looking down on them afterall.  Sounds ludicrous does it not?  It's just as ludicrous for the homosexual agenda, I am speaking of the media attention and outright ramming of acceptance of their lifestyle down the typical citizen's throat, to the outright attempts to destroy the God given intent of marriage.  You can sit idly by and let this happen, others choose to speak out about it and stop it.  Just a note, if the post Vatican II Church were any more accepting of homosexuals we would all be wearing rainbow sashes.  Have you read anything at all about the rampant homosexual permiscuous behavior going on in across the nation in the seminaries? 

Quote
To say they should seek psycho therapy is to assume that they have that kind of money to spare.  Free therapy usually goes along the lines of everyone being all lovey dovey, and coming to terms with who you are etc., basically its conditioning. These therapies do not always work ie alcoholics anonymous, you're not guaranteed a cure.

There are free resources for psychotherapy, but I do not believe mainstream psychology would help anyway.  A resource that has had great success is the one Missfluffy mentioned in a later post. 

Quote
Blaming it on nuclear families is ludicrous, because many a time homosexuals are birthed in "perfect" 2 parent households. Chastity is the best possible option for them in this case that it is not able to be remedied. Demonology places Asmodeus as the cause for male homosexuality, consequently he's the demon in the book of Tobit. Unless people are planning to put all homosexuals in quarantine and start doing a mass exorcism, I doubt that'll happen. No one will ever know why homosexuality occurs, but to point and criticize is not the way to go. I am in no way condoning the act, but the point is no one will ever understand their crosses in this life. There are those who embrace it like those of Sodom and Gomorrah, but there are also those who do not want to be that way and struggle with it. Its a touchy subject, but I believe the church could do more instead of treating them like lepers. Come on now they're showing charity to the heretics and all other abominations, why not show them some level of charity. One does not have to accept the act in order to show them charity,as Camp mentioned prayer is necessary. The question then becomes will you become some bigot incapable of showing some level of charity or will you step up and do something to heal the wounds. Seriously I'm tired of hearing the responses that this is only a forum for us to voice ourselves blah blah blah, because then one is only left to assume the type of person you may be in our society. Some of us come off as pious people, some as penitents, but some of us on the board come off as Nazis with Napoleon complexes, compensating for power we wish we had over other people. I ask pardon of those on the board who are not like this, and of those whom may misinterpret my post and read into it searching for an argument.

Pax Vobiscum

What are you talking about here?  Do you understand the basice concept of hate the sin love the sinner?

kjvail

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about homosexualty
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2006, 12:37:pm »
Quote from: LatinPassion
I agree with miss fluffy, no one of you could ever  understand what a homosexual goes through. Its easy for people to say  its morally wrong yada yada, but like Camp said its a cross they carry.  I am not condoning the act, but what one does not know one should hold  ones tongue. I know a few of them some who are more liberal than  others. I would assume that many on the forum assume that gay men for  example are all feminine, but the fact of the matter is there are many  whom are just as masculine as any heterosexual male.
 
 
  Don't assume, it make an a** out of you and me
 
  I'm a therapist, I deal with people all day long that may very well go  to their graves in denial of their depraaved and immoral behavior.  Immoral behavior causes a blindness in the intellect with respect to  the object of the moral act, people become more and more unable to even  view their behavior accurately.
 
 
Quote
 I am blessed with empathy and what those tormented souls go through I  would wish on no one. As mentioned earlier charity and prayer is what  is needed. To plainly put it gay sex is comfort sex. Many of them look  for that love that they cannot grasp, that's the same problem a  prostitute goes through. Many times this is based on rejection by ones  peers, and they look for those who are as tormented or misguided as  they are. How can we expect for a tormented soul to change if all we do  is continually do is throw stones. Let he who is without sin cast the  first stone. If we the church pushed ourselves we could help them.  Dominus tecum, I  noticed in your post your level of empathy is at a low. I pose to you,  and all others who may come across this thread that you try and put  yourself in their shoes. Would you want the constant damning to hell or  would you want charity offered to you. Seriously many of them do not  want to be that way, but it happens.
 
 
  It really irks me when people misuse that passage. Yes, Our Blessed  Lord said "let him who is without sin throw the first stone". Then  He also said, "Go and sin no more". There is a difference between  charity and permissiveness. Where in the world did Christians get the  idea that we should tolerate evil? The spiritual works of mercy require  we "correct the sinner". Of course this needs to be done in the right  way, with love not hatred, but it is not love to ignore the sin... in  fact that is one way that we may participate in the sin of another - by  silence.
 
 
Quote
  To say they should seek psycho therapy is to assume that they  have that kind of money to spare. Free therapy usually goes along the  lines of everyone being all lovey dovey, and coming to terms with who  you are etc., basically its conditioning. These therapies do not always  work ie alcoholics anonymous, you're not guaranteed a cure. Blaming it  on nuclear families is ludicrous, because many a time homosexuals are  birthed in "perfect" 2 parent households. Chastity is the best possible  option for them in this case that it is not able to be remedied.  Demonology places Asmodeus as the cause for male homosexuality,  consequently he's the demon in the book of Tobit. Unless people are  planning to put all homosexuals in quarantine and start doing a mass  exorcism, I doubt that'll happen.
 
 
  You are assuming again and talking about things you obviously don't  have a clue about. Therapy is widely available, for free, thru various  social organizations (try Catholic Social Services for instance),  medicare will pay for it, etc. Therapy may not always be the best  choice, for the reasons given but not for the reason that if it's free  its no good. I take a bit of offense to that, since I work in the DOC,  the therapy I give is free as far as my clients are concerned.
 
 
Quote
 No one will ever know why homosexuality occurs, but to point and  criticize is not the way to go. I am in no way condoning the act, but  the point is no one will ever understand their crosses in this life.  There are those who embrace it like those of Sodom and Gomorrah, but  there are also those who do not want to be that way and struggle with  it. Its a touchy subject, but I believe the church could do more  instead of treating them like lepers. Come on now they're showing  charity to the heretics and all other abominations, why not show them  some level of charity. One does not have to accept the act in order to  show them charity,as Camp mentioned prayer is necessary. The question  then becomes will you become some bigot incapable of showing some level  of charity or will you step up and do something to heal the wounds.  Seriously I'm tired of hearing the responses that this is only a forum  for us to voice ourselves blah blah blah, because then one is only left  to assume the type of person you may be in our society. Some of us come  off as pious people, some as penitents, but some of us on the board  come off as Nazis with Napoleon complexes, compensating for power we  wish we had over other people. I ask pardon of those on the board who  are not like this, and of those whom may misinterpret my post and read  into it searching for an argument.
 
  I'm curious, since you think the Church is "treating them like lepers"  what would you have the Church do? I just appointed you dictator of the  Catholic Church.... you can change anything you want. What would your  approach be?
 

 
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Silentchapel

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« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2006, 02:10:pm »

I'm gay, and I'll comment on some of the things said here. Maybe it will shed some light on the subject.

 

Quote from: winoblue1
...one cannot be held morally responsible for behaviors that come as a result of a morally neutral or unchosen natural condition.

We are all sinners. Should we be allowed to sin just because we are tempted by sin? It is kind of a silly argument, if you ask me. "Since we didn't choose to be sinners, we cannot be held responsible for sin." Silly.

 

Quote from: winoblue1
Homosexual acts were condemned the same way as other acts... premarital sex, adultery etc etc..

As it should...

 

Quote from: Pat
Modern psychology (or genetics) hasn't conclusively determined whether people are "born gay"...

I don't know if people are "born" gay, but I know for certain that I didn't choose to be gay. Sadly, I've chatted with some individuals who literally 'chose' to be gay... :(

 

Quote from: Pat
Since this is an area of science, the Church can only say "the homosexual act is wrong"...

Agreed.

 

Quote from: Pat
I am inclined to believe that it's curable, but I may be wrong.

I highly doubt it's curable. Once, someone has posted a video of Texans turning Moslem. I showed that video to my priest, and he, knowing that I'm gay, said: "It is easy for Protestants to adopt Islam. One holy book that shouldn't be questioned, forcusing on good outside behaviour (ie. don't drink, fornicate, gamble...) as opposed to inner purity of the heart. That is why some of them (Protestants) claim they can 'cure' homosexuality. They don't cure it, again they focus on outside behaviour..."

 

Quote from: Pat
If so, it is a cross like any other that we have. The Catechism says that, assuming it's incurable, such persons are called to celibacy.

Agreed.

 

Quote from: Miss_Fluffy
I think it's appropriate that the church should teach that we have charity and compassion for these people.  But nowhere is it suggested that their behavior is fine.

Agreed.

 

Quote from: LatinPassion
I agree with miss fluffy, no one of you could ever understand what a homosexual goes through.

I can't really answer this, since I don't know what goes in a heterosexual (wo)man's mind. However, I doubt that homosexual temptations are 'stronger' (or whatever) than heterosexual ones. Usually, the ones who have hard time are the ones trying to get out of the closet, find a boyfriend, introduce him to the parents, and similar stuff. Honestly, a lot of drama would be saved with celibacy (except "I want grandchildren" stab coming from the parents...).

 

Quote from: LatinPassion
To plainly put it gay sex is comfort sex.

Plainly and truly.

 

Quote from: LatinPassion
To say they should seek psycho therapy is to assume that they have that kind of money to spare.

I guess that the fact that most (like myself) are assured of homosexuality's incurability is the main problem, not money...

 

Quote from: LatinPassion
Therapies do not always work ie alcoholics anonymous, you're not guaranteed a cure.

The main difference is that there was a time when alcoholic wasn't an alcoholic, while in most cases, there was no time when a gay man wasn't gay (if we ignore innocent childhood).

 

Quote from: VoxClamantis
I take it for granted that there are people at this forum who struggle with homosexual impulses.

 

 

 

 


catheotimus

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about homosexualty
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2006, 02:57:pm »
Quote from: Silentchapel
 

 

Quote from: LatinPassion
To plainly put it gay sex is comfort sex.

Plainly and truly.

 

 

Probably will appear "odd" that I zoom in on this section only, but really, isn't all sex "comfort" sex?  The point being, this surely does not explain gay sexual attraction.

 

Honestly, I'm pretty unsure of my understanding or position on the "gay issue". I'm reminded of a documentary that aired recently that revealed how cultural differences affect one's perspective. For example, apparently, in Eastern Indian countries, it is common practice for young males to engage in sexual activities. It is how they "learn" and also (comfort's sake noted) how they release this overwhelming energy. Still, they marry (often arranged) and give up (or not as the case may be) their youthful activities. In another country, I forget, it was Asian or Indian also, I believe...there practice was to form their own "community" --probably much like what happens here too, except that it appeared to be somehow more acceptable. Perhaps this was all the intended slant of the documentary.

 

No one has yet addressed the initial request as I understood it...and I can't either, but I will be looking for some answers in the responses here too. That is, what exactly IS the teaching of the Church. I'm sure there will be more than one answer. Pre-modern and Post-Modern, right? *sigh*.....

-Robin


miss_fluffy

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about homosexualty
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2006, 03:21:pm »

I think the teaching of the church is pretty clear.  Simply that it is a grave sin to participate in homosexual sex.  The church has recently made statements regarding the idea that charity should be extended to those who have homosexual desires.

 

I think the problem comes from people like winoblue's friend who think that the idea of extending charity towards homosexuals is also wrong.  It is this type of mindset that leads to violence towards gays, and the resulting backlash of "gay rights" political agendas. 

 

With the growth of the gay movement, and concurrent growth of those violently opposed to such movements, it is important that the church further addresses the issue by restating that we must hate the sin, not the sinner.

 

Seriously, violence against gays is not a rare issue.  Especially since they have segregated into certain communities, and been more blatantly "out".  When I lived in the gay community in Houston TX, I spoke to many, many people who were jumped by a bunch of guys in pickup trucks, beaten and left lying on the sidewalk.  Even the media didn't pick up on all the abuses, because not all were reported (alot of these people were drug users etc. and so did not confront police).  It is this type of violent response, that typically gets blamed on men with "hard core christian" upbringing, that has caused homosexuals to march and push their political agenda.

Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true.– Buddha

Note: According to this precept, I find that Buddhism is NOT true.  I have tested and judged many things, and the only Truth I have found is in God's One True Church: The Catholic Church.

Dear Lord, I know I can live by Your Holy Will every moment of my life, because You have given me faith that Your Grace will enable me to.