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Author Topic: Proof that Medjugorje Visionaries are Frauds  (Read 15324 times)

CrusaderKing

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Re: Proof that Medjugorje Visionaries are Frauds
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2009, 10:49:pm »

I was a pretty true blue believer in Medjugorje for quite a number of years. One of the factors that gave it credibility for me was how long the visionaries continued this ruse. No whistleblowers in the lot of visionaries since 1981. One has to applaud their steadfastness and discipline.


Interesting. I was convinced from the beginning that it was fraud &/or satanic because it was enthusiastically supported by the Communist government of Yugoslavia, unlike Lourdes and Fatima where the leftwing governments opposed them. I was solidified in my opposition by two facts, the first being that the 'apparitions' just kept goin' and goin' like the Energizer Bunny. All the approved apparitions that I am aware of were temporally finite with Fatima, at eight months, being the longest I can remember.

The final nail in the coffin, as far as I was concerned, was when E. Michael Jones did a major expose on it, he received multiple death threats, etc., again unlike Fatima and Lourdes, where the supporters humbly accepted criticism whilst clinging to the truth of what they believed.

I'll tell you what convinced me Medjugorje was a fraud. I say this as someone who believed in these so called apparitions, as I was thrilled to think Our Lady was appearing on earth in our own day, until I began to read more about it.

It wasn't/isn't the length of these "apparitions". I think St. Bridget of Sweden received apparitions from Our Lord and Our Lady for many years.

1) What someone mentioned earlier about one of the "visionaries" catching baby Jesus before he fell.
2)The messages themselves, at least one of them which says that conversion to the Catholic Church isn't necessary.
3)The materialistic lifestyle some of them, particularly Ivan, leads.
4) Some of them having "visions" on virtual command.

My guess is some, if not all, of these ten "secrets" have already been revealed in past apparitions and visions, as Satan knows everything that has happened in the past and can use it to his advantage. He skillfully interweaves truth and falsity to suit his purposes,especially if he knows his time is short, and if his 100 years forseen by Pope Leo XIII is almost up.

Melkite

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Re: Proof that Medjugorje Visionaries are Frauds
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2009, 11:58:pm »
God can write straight with crooked lines.
  No he can't.  That's a logical impossibility, and God can't do those.  It's like saying God can make a boulder too heavy for him to lift.  It's logically imposible.  We worship a God of reason.  Logical impossibilities are irrational and only for Calvinists and Muslims theologically.

artificial person

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Re: Proof that Medjugorje Visionaries are Frauds
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2009, 05:50:am »
I've been fascinated with Medjugorge for a while. Someone I know  became very fervant about the faith after attending and  is now, several years later, going to enter a seminary.

 I've seen E. Michael Jone's expose on the subject and believe the appiritions are a fraud. For the record however, I disagree with E. Michael Jones on other issues.

IIn my opinion, one possibility for the conversions is that these people are no longer grounded in the traditional faith. They know something is wrong with the church but they don't know what it is. They go on an exotic pilgimage and sadly getting caught up emotionally.

Its fair to draw a comparison to why people bought the Obama Deception hook line and sinker. After four years of Bush, where the country was humiliated and ruined, people, being unfamiliar with the principles in which the country was founded, out  of desperation attached themselves to a charismatic leader who was going to save the day.
"When The Lord taught His Apostles the Our Father, He made it clear that none of His followers could accomplish the first act of religion, which is prayer, without putting himself in relation with all that can advance or retard, favor or hinder, the reign of God on earth and he must do this in proportion to his intellectual attainments and to the extent of the Horizon open before him"    Cardinal Pie of Poitiers

Credo

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Re: Proof that Medjugorje Visionaries are Frauds
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2009, 06:05:am »
Quote from: Melkite
No he can't.  That's a logical impossibility, and God can't do those.

Really?

How would you like to explain a man throw into a well, turned into a slave, and locked in a dungeon becoming a mercy unto an entire nation? How would you like to explain a baby thrown into the Nile as a last-ditch hope to save him from murdering soldiers, who grows up to become the savior of his people? A man was nailed to a cross and this somehow takes away the sins of the entire world. How would you like to explain this? Or how about this selfsame individual coming back to life from the grave?

The entire Bible is God writing straight with crooked lines.

Quote
Logical impossibilities are irrational and only for Calvinists and Muslims theologically.

Walk into a church any morning you please. On the altar you will find a man. In the course of the ritual he's proforming, called a Mass, the man, who's called a priest, will do something with common bread and common wine that isn't especially logical. Take a peek.
I promise not to put anything here which might help us question our mind-forged manacles, inspire us, or help us in any way at all.

N.B.: I will not be posting on this site again until the Christmas octave. Have a good Advent.

glgas

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Re: Proof that Medjugorje Visionaries are Frauds
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2009, 06:29:am »
God can write straight with crooked lines.

There may be massive fraud going on and it is all a sham, but the people who go there, have faith. They innocently believe God is there and Our Lady appears there. That makes them open for God. God touches them and they convert in spite of those who only want to exploit. It is easy to have a religious experience if the climate is right and there are others there to share in the faith

God can use any situation to convert people. God permits evil so a greater good can come out of it.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.

Eusebius of Caesarea recorded that before AD 70 all the Jews became united, believing that here is the time of the Messias. Only the Christian fled to Pella.  There was the second conversion for the rest: when Mary the rich woman baked her baby and ate half of him. The Jews in Jerusalem understood that their previous belief was false pretense, and they had fallen into the hand of the living God.

The truth is that the Adversary has supernatural power, something what we cannot have, and he is using this power to deceive us. Medjugorje is rejected by the Magisterium, and anyone with even a little concern about the hierarchy of the Church should know about it. Consequently for the Adversary it is important to weaken the obedience toward the Magisterium by genuine like conversions there.

We shall pray: Do not lead us into temptation.


Nic

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Re: Proof that Medjugorje Visionaries are Frauds
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2009, 06:45:am »
This is a very old video because the 'children' are now middle aged!  And it is not conclusive as far as I am concerned.

Medjugorje was the cause of my reconversion some 15 years ago. It was not a flash in the pan. Many many graces have come to me in these years. The grace to become a daily communicant, the grace of a religious vocation and so much more.  There are countless other souls who can say this as well. And I was a pilgrim there in 1998 and it was an incredible journey.

I say all that and yet I do not promote Medjugorje or messages and the reason is the blatant disobedience that has been exhibited there. That is a huge red flag.  Something supernatural is happening but whether or not it is from heaven, I leave to the Church to decide and it has yet to do so. But the disobedience is a serious thing. Our Lady is not disobedient.

But there are Masses all day long and confessions as well. These are powerful means of prayer and conversion!  This is where the graces flow.

It is completely obvious that the so=called "visions" at Medjugorje are NOT from heaven.  We really don't need the modern Church to tell us this, because the Church of All Ages has already done so.  When placed side by side with what the Church teaches, it can be EASILY seen that Medjugorje is a hoax - or a lying deception from hell.

Let us compare the teachings of the Church and Scripture with the "revelations" of Medjugorje: What the Church Says1
"There is but one universal Church of the faithful outside of which no one at all can be saved."
–Pope Innocent III2

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
–Pope Boniface VIII3

"The most Holy Roman Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church ... can have eternal life."
–Pope Eugene IV4

"That they may be one, as thou Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that (as a consequence) the world may believe that Thou hast sent me."
–John 17:21

"Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one spirit even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism."
–Ephesians 4:3-5 What Medjugorje Says
"God presides over all religions as a king controls his subjects, through his priests and ministers."
–Svetozar Krljevic O.F.M.5

"The Madonna always stresses that there is but one God and that people have enforced unnatural separation. One cannot truly believe, be a true Christian, if he does not respect other religions as well."
–"Seer" Ivanka Ivankovic6

"The Madonna said that religions are separated in the earth, but the people of all religions are accepted by her Son."
–"Seer" Ivanka Ivankovic6

Question: "Is the Blessed Mother calling all people to be Catholic?"
"No. The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son."
–"Seer" Vicka Ivankovic7

"The Blessed Mother has said: 'Tell everyone that it is you who are divided on earth. The Moslems and the Orthodox for the same reason as Catholics, are equal before my Son and me."


"For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."
--Ephesians 6:12

Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
--St. Athanasius

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
--Darth Vader

 -- God Bless the SSPX.

devotedknuckles

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Re: Proof that Medjugorje Visionaries are Frauds
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2009, 07:20:am »
LOL
How could anypne fall for this trash
This is the journey
from which, for me there shall be no return
wholly drenched
is the pine tree of  tears
-Yoshida Shoin

artificial person

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Re: Proof that Medjugorje Visionaries are Frauds
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2009, 08:06:am »
E michael Jones calls them "little ones," the old,  the week, the uneducated, the easily duped.

I have the dvd "visions on demand". perhaps I'll watch it again and comment.
"When The Lord taught His Apostles the Our Father, He made it clear that none of His followers could accomplish the first act of religion, which is prayer, without putting himself in relation with all that can advance or retard, favor or hinder, the reign of God on earth and he must do this in proportion to his intellectual attainments and to the extent of the Horizon open before him"    Cardinal Pie of Poitiers

artificial person

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Re: Proof that Medjugorje Visionaries are Frauds
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2009, 10:45:am »
Ok, half way through the video. Looks like the Bishop from the area in no uncertain terms said there was nothing supernatural occuring and that the vatican pronounced stated that no one was to organize tours. The press, particularly in Ireland, were reluctant to say anything negative about Medugorge because they were making a lot of money from the advertisement.

E. Michael Jones called it religious consumerism, "you lay you money down and you get  a religious experience."

seems like some of the Franciscans in the area were doing a lot of charsimatic worship sessions, where they used sensitivity techniques to break down peoples inhibitions. Apparently some people ended up in mental homes after the sessions.
"When The Lord taught His Apostles the Our Father, He made it clear that none of His followers could accomplish the first act of religion, which is prayer, without putting himself in relation with all that can advance or retard, favor or hinder, the reign of God on earth and he must do this in proportion to his intellectual attainments and to the extent of the Horizon open before him"    Cardinal Pie of Poitiers

artificial person

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Re: Proof that Medjugorje Visionaries are Frauds
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2009, 11:09:am »
It seems like what was going on was tour groups were making a fortune off of medugorje. Queen of Peace tours was one of the big ones rrun by Peter K miller. tours ranged from $900 to $2500 and you could be "introduced to our lady" by one of the children for $500. According to the movie, Miller used to leave his cutomers stranded in different countries, etc
"When The Lord taught His Apostles the Our Father, He made it clear that none of His followers could accomplish the first act of religion, which is prayer, without putting himself in relation with all that can advance or retard, favor or hinder, the reign of God on earth and he must do this in proportion to his intellectual attainments and to the extent of the Horizon open before him"    Cardinal Pie of Poitiers