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Author Topic: Who were the Heretical Popes?  (Read 4168 times)

shin

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Who were the Heretical Popes?
« on: July 09, 2010, 05:35:am »
“If by the Roman Church you mean its head or pontiff, it is beyond question that he can err even in matters touching the faith.  He does this when he teaches heresy by his own judgement or decretal. In truth, many Roman pontiffs were heretics.  The last of them was Pope John XXII.”

Pope Adrian VI

Okay.. Pope John XXIInd..

Who else? Who were they and what do we know about them?

Stubborn

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Re: Who were the Heretical Popes?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2010, 05:49:am »
It is the Mass that matters.

But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. -Apocalypse  3:16

shin

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Re: Who were the Heretical Popes?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2010, 06:04:am »
Please don't divert, but I must say that it's amazing how much literature that guy puts out.  :o

Hate to say it, but he might do a better job than what we got.  :o  ::) :o

glgas

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Re: Who were the Heretical Popes?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2010, 07:33:am »
We shall distinguish between error (proven statement by an individual which previously or later was condemned as heretic) and heretic, and individual explicitly anathematized.

Who anathematized John XII as heretic (except Louis Bavarian Kning, who had as much jurisdiction is the case on that time as some traditionalists have now)


McNider

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Re: Who were the Heretical Popes?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2010, 08:58:am »
“If by the Roman Church you mean its head or pontiff, it is beyond question that he can err even in matters touching the faith.  He does this when he teaches heresy by his own judgement or decretal. In truth, many Roman pontiffs were heretics.  The last of them was Pope John XXII.”

Pope Adrian VI

Okay.. Pope John XXIInd..

Who else? Who were they and what do we know about them?


Where does this quote come from? I see it bandied around in numerous spots, but nobody seems to know its origin.

As to John XXII, he certainly held some erroneous views as to the Beatific Vision, but he never attempted to bind the Church to those views. He mentioned them in some sermons he gave, but that's hardly rising to the level of infallible statements.

I'm sure you probably had some popes who were material heretics. There are tons of saints in that category as well.


shin

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Re: Who were the Heretical Popes?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2010, 09:22:am »
Hmm. Good question, it's everywhere so I didn't question it particularly, since it also fit with other statements.

Google says: (Quaest. in IV Sent.; quoted in Viollet, Papal Infallibility and the Syllabus, 1908)

Whatever Quaest in IV Sent; is shorthand for, I do not know, nor its level of authority. There's a claim from some fellow on the net, that the statement was made before the Pope was Pope and was secondhand from his students.

I was able to find the secondary source cited as:

"during the reign of St. Pius X, this work was placed on the Index of Forbidden Books. (Decree, 5 April 1906. See R. Naz, “Viollet, Paul-Marie,” Dict. Droit. Can., 7:1511)

I suppose the quote can be challenged if the background is what is claimed.

OTOH it does fit with other statements such as:

"If a future pope teaches anything contrary to the Catholic Faith, do not follow him."

Bl. Pope Pius IX  (Letter to Bishop Brizen)

After his death, Honorius was anathemized by the Eastern Church; but we should not forget that he was accused of heresy, the only crime that would make lawful the resistance of inferiors to the orders of their superiors, and the refusal of their malicious doctrines.

Pope Adrian II

“The pope should not flatter himself about his power, nor should he rashly glory in his honour and high estate, because the less he is judged by man, the more he is judged by God. Still the less can the Roman Pontiff glory, because he can be judged by men, or rather, can be shown to be already judged, if for example he should wither away into heresy, because “he who does not believe  is already judged.” (St. John 3:18) In such a case it should be said of him: ‘If salt should lose its savour, it is good for nothing but to be cast out and trampled under foot by men.’”

Pope Innocent III

Etc. I'm glad I looked up further on the quote's sourcing, but my real focus was and is on who are those referred to in it. How dark is history on this? I get the idea that nobody knows in general.

devotedknuckles

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Re: Who were the Heretical Popes?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2010, 09:47:am »
Pope liberius was
This is the journey
from which, for me there shall be no return
wholly drenched
is the pine tree of  tears
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FatherCekada

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Re: Who were the Heretical Popes?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2010, 10:03:am »
Hmm. Good question, it's everywhere so I didn't question it particularly, since it also fit with other statements.

Google says: (Quaest. in IV Sent.; quoted in Viollet, Papal Infallibility and the Syllabus, 1908)

Whatever Quaest in IV Sent; is shorthand for, I do not know, nor its level of authority. There's a claim from some fellow on the net, that the statement was made before the Pope was Pope and was secondhand from his students.

I was able to find the secondary source cited as:

"during the reign of St. Pius X, this work was placed on the Index of Forbidden Books. (Decree, 5 April 1906. See R. Naz, “Viollet, Paul-Marie,” Dict. Droit. Can., 7:1511)

I suppose the quote can be challenged if the background is what is claimed.

OTOH it does fit with other statements such as:

"If a future pope teaches anything contrary to the Catholic Faith, do not follow him."

Bl. Pope Pius IX  (Letter to Bishop Brizen)

After his death, Honorius was anathemized by the Eastern Church; but we should not forget that he was accused of heresy, the only crime that would make lawful the resistance of inferiors to the orders of their superiors, and the refusal of their malicious doctrines.

Pope Adrian II

When I wrote the article that Shin cites ("Sedevacantism Refuted?"), I tried to track down the sources for the quotes, but the only citation I could find is to the book by Viollet that ended up on the Index.

I have not been able to find Viollet's book either. Any leads would be appreciated.

The quotes sound fishy.
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McNider

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Re: Who were the Heretical Popes?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2010, 08:05:am »
Hmm. Good question, it's everywhere so I didn't question it particularly, since it also fit with other statements.

Google says: (Quaest. in IV Sent.; quoted in Viollet, Papal Infallibility and the Syllabus, 1908)

Whatever Quaest in IV Sent; is shorthand for, I do not know, nor its level of authority. There's a claim from some fellow on the net, that the statement was made before the Pope was Pope and was secondhand from his students.

I was able to find the secondary source cited as:

"during the reign of St. Pius X, this work was placed on the Index of Forbidden Books. (Decree, 5 April 1906. See R. Naz, “Viollet, Paul-Marie,” Dict. Droit. Can., 7:1511)

I suppose the quote can be challenged if the background is what is claimed.

OTOH it does fit with other statements such as:

"If a future pope teaches anything contrary to the Catholic Faith, do not follow him."

Bl. Pope Pius IX  (Letter to Bishop Brizen)

After his death, Honorius was anathemized by the Eastern Church; but we should not forget that he was accused of heresy, the only crime that would make lawful the resistance of inferiors to the orders of their superiors, and the refusal of their malicious doctrines.

Pope Adrian II

“The pope should not flatter himself about his power, nor should he rashly glory in his honour and high estate, because the less he is judged by man, the more he is judged by God. Still the less can the Roman Pontiff glory, because he can be judged by men, or rather, can be shown to be already judged, if for example he should wither away into heresy, because “he who does not believe  is already judged.” (St. John 3:18) In such a case it should be said of him: ‘If salt should lose its savour, it is good for nothing but to be cast out and trampled under foot by men.’”

Pope Innocent III

Etc. I'm glad I looked up further on the quote's sourcing, but my real focus was and is on who are those referred to in it. How dark is history on this? I get the idea that nobody knows in general.


Pope Honorius was condemned for permitting the spread of monothelitism. Those claiming he was himself a heretic were refuted by everyone from Pope St. Agatho to St. Maximus the Confessor.

Quote
Pope liberius was[/quote

This is a difficult one. Liberius signed a semi-Arian creed after being imprisoned and probably tortured. Once he got out, he went back to condemning semi-Arianism as heresy.


shin

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Re: Who were the Heretical Popes?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2010, 04:34:am »
Well let's see, so far despite the statement attributed to Pope Adrian, but called into question -- We have one Pope who espoused heretical views, Pope John XXII, from the pulpit, but not in decree, who some argue while holding heretical views was not a heretic per se because the matter had not yet been defined.

After near 2,000 years it is quite hard to find these fellows. Which I see is the reason why some apologists insist there are no formally heretical Popes. However there certainly are some quotes positing their possible existence, if not directly naming..

Can't we find anything more fellows?

And I'd prefer not to get into a discussion of the Post-Conciliar Popes, I'd like to go looking to history for precedent instead.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 04:36:am by shin »