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Author Topic: Sermon by Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer - SSPX  (Read 23945 times)

ggreg

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Re: Sermon by Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer - SSPX
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2012, 09:25:am »
I know of at least six cases.  I am sure there are more since I have only experienced SSPX in the English speaking world.

They're not isolated cases.  They are a leadership technique.

The SSPX has, over at least 20 years, silenced internal criticism with uncharitable methods.  I've given two examples here.

Another example would be Bishop Williamson ignoring the advice of the rector of the SSPX Seminary in Argentina and accepting and then ordaining Carlos Urrutigoity. When he was a seminarian at the Society of St. Pius X seminary in La Reja, Argentina, he was dismissed for homosexual behavior. He then obtained admission to the Society of St. Pius X seminary in Winona, Minnesota where +Williamson was the Rector . After his ordination Fr. Urrutigoity came under a cloud of accusations of homosexuality due to his particular and excessive attention to certain young seminarians he was teaching. Fr. Urrutigoity was finally dismissed from the Winona seminary after it was discovered that he was undertaking a secret project, which became the mission of the Society of St. John.

Bishop Fellay of the Society of St. Pius X warned Scranton Bishop James Timlin of the homosexual misconduct of Fr. Urrutigoity. Bishop Timlin sent his auxiliary bishop to interview the above-referenced seminarian but Bishop Timlin chose not to accept the accusations against Fr. Urrutigoity.

It appears to me that there is a clerical pride at work where certain priests and bishops see themselves as above all criticism and if warned of problems or why a policy is a bad policy they react defensively and shoot the messenger.  It can be found in the conciliar church as well as the SSPX, I don't deny that.  But the SSPX has it.

You post comments as though I never attended SSPX masses.  I started going to the SSPX in the late 1970s and continued without a break for 2.5 decades. It would be difficult to have much more experience of the SSPX than I have; as a lay person.

I'm not anti-SSPX but neither and I prepared to stay silent when I see the SSPX experiencing the very lack of trust and reaction to authoritarianism from its right wing priest, that it has fermented within its ranks over the years.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 09:47:am by ggreg »

Gerard

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Re: Sermon by Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer - SSPX
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2012, 09:49:am »
What makes me skeptical is the cartoonish characterization of the some of the events described. 

I've read the Michael J. Mazza article about Fr. Rizzo a number of times over the years and it reads like a propaganda piece. It's not persuasive and it's over the top.   As I stated earlier, I read Fr.'s piece for why he left the SSPX (his words.) and I also found it to be arguable in its accuracy.   

What I want to know about is Fr. Rizzo and his decision.  He opted not to go to the SSPV but rather the FSSP.  While his big complaint was supposedly the failure to address problems and get action.

So, what I want to know is about Fr. Rizzo, post-SSPX.  What was his position on the FSSP regarding protocol 1411? 

Are there any audio sermons of him we can listen to where he confronts Vatican II and the Novus Ordo head on?  What's his hardest most uncompromising traditionalist piece of writing? 

Just as its likely that any clergy can abuse authority knowingly or unknowingly, another member of the clergy can also accidentally or deliberately be a consensus cracker and sew discord for "the higher good." 

I doubt Fr. Pfeiffer will be "regularizing" and joining the FSSP anytime soon because of "corruption in the hierarchical structure of the SSPX"  Talk about frying pan to fire, unless it was an infiltration in the first place.   
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 10:24:pm by Gerard »

TrentCath

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Re: Sermon by Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer - SSPX
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2012, 11:04:am »
I know of at least six cases.  I am sure there are more since I have only experienced SSPX in the English speaking world.

They're not isolated cases.  They are a leadership technique.

The SSPX has, over at least 20 years, silenced internal criticism with uncharitable methods.  I've given two examples here.

Another example would be Bishop Williamson ignoring the advice of the rector of the SSPX Seminary in Argentina and accepting and then ordaining Carlos Urrutigoity. When he was a seminarian at the Society of St. Pius X seminary in La Reja, Argentina, he was dismissed for homosexual behavior. He then obtained admission to the Society of St. Pius X seminary in Winona, Minnesota where +Williamson was the Rector . After his ordination Fr. Urrutigoity came under a cloud of accusations of homosexuality due to his particular and excessive attention to certain young seminarians he was teaching. Fr. Urrutigoity was finally dismissed from the Winona seminary after it was discovered that he was undertaking a secret project, which became the mission of the Society of St. John.

Bishop Fellay of the Society of St. Pius X warned Scranton Bishop James Timlin of the homosexual misconduct of Fr. Urrutigoity. Bishop Timlin sent his auxiliary bishop to interview the above-referenced seminarian but Bishop Timlin chose not to accept the accusations against Fr. Urrutigoity.

It appears to me that there is a clerical pride at work where certain priests and bishops see themselves as above all criticism and if warned of problems or why a policy is a bad policy they react defensively and shoot the messenger.  It can be found in the conciliar church as well as the SSPX, I don't deny that.  But the SSPX has it.

You post comments as though I never attended SSPX masses.  I started going to the SSPX in the late 1970s and continued without a break for 2.5 decades. It would be difficult to have much more experience of the SSPX than I have; as a lay person.

I'm not anti-SSPX but neither and I prepared to stay silent when I see the SSPX experiencing the very lack of trust and reaction to authoritarianism from its right wing priest, that it has fermented within its ranks over the years.

You're being rather cynical, moreover 6 cases out of 500 is very low. Nor can you pretend to have all the facts to make a competent judgment, I will certainly trust the society over posts on a forum, they may well have committed errors now and again, but they are not perfect, no one and no organisation, bar the  mystical body of Christ, is.

Moreover I fail to see how any of this is relevant to Fr Pfeiffer? He is being disciplined for disobedience and scandal, not because someone is being 'authoritarian'
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 11:05:am by TrentCath »

OldMan

Re: Sermon by Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer - SSPX
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2012, 12:04:pm »
I know of at least six cases.  I am sure there are more since I have only experienced SSPX in the English speaking world.

They're not isolated cases.  They are a leadership technique.

The SSPX has, over at least 20 years, silenced internal criticism with uncharitable methods.  I've given two examples here.

Another example would be Bishop Williamson ignoring the advice of the rector of the SSPX Seminary in Argentina and accepting and then ordaining Carlos Urrutigoity. When he was a seminarian at the Society of St. Pius X seminary in La Reja, Argentina, he was dismissed for homosexual behavior. He then obtained admission to the Society of St. Pius X seminary in Winona, Minnesota where +Williamson was the Rector . After his ordination Fr. Urrutigoity came under a cloud of accusations of homosexuality due to his particular and excessive attention to certain young seminarians he was teaching. Fr. Urrutigoity was finally dismissed from the Winona seminary after it was discovered that he was undertaking a secret project, which became the mission of the Society of St. John.

Bishop Fellay of the Society of St. Pius X warned Scranton Bishop James Timlin of the homosexual misconduct of Fr. Urrutigoity. Bishop Timlin sent his auxiliary bishop to interview the above-referenced seminarian but Bishop Timlin chose not to accept the accusations against Fr. Urrutigoity.

It appears to me that there is a clerical pride at work where certain priests and bishops see themselves as above all criticism and if warned of problems or why a policy is a bad policy they react defensively and shoot the messenger.  It can be found in the conciliar church as well as the SSPX, I don't deny that.  But the SSPX has it.

You post comments as though I never attended SSPX masses.  I started going to the SSPX in the late 1970s and continued without a break for 2.5 decades. It would be difficult to have much more experience of the SSPX than I have; as a lay person.

I'm not anti-SSPX but neither and I prepared to stay silent when I see the SSPX experiencing the very lack of trust and reaction to authoritarianism from its right wing priest, that it has fermented within its ranks over the years.

You're being rather cynical, moreover 6 cases out of 500 is very low. Nor can you pretend to have all the facts to make a competent judgment, I will certainly trust the society over posts on a forum, they may well have committed errors now and again, but they are not perfect, no one and no organisation, bar the  mystical body of Christ, is.

Moreover I fail to see how any of this is relevant to Fr Pfeiffer? He is being disciplined for disobedience and scandal, not because someone is being 'authoritarian'

Good points, although I am sympathetic to Father Pfeiffer. Many forum thread posts are nothing but high-tech lynchings. Anyone with access to the Internet can say anything about anyone!
"It would be better to teach demons than to try to convince heretics." –St. Ephraem the Syrian, Doctor of the Church

Adam Wayne

Re: Sermon by Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer - SSPX
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2012, 01:00:pm »
You know this is really getting laugh out loud funny.

The same people that seem to be arguing that the SSPX ought to be correcting Rome of Her Doctrinal "errors" are now admitting that the SSPX is a house divided against itself.

Really, you can't make this stuff up.

I have come to a decision that I have been leaning toward for quite awhile. I think I have finally collected enough data to render judgement.

The SSPX has done more harm than good.


Old Salt

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Re: Sermon by Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer - SSPX
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2012, 01:55:pm »
You know this is really getting laugh out loud funny.

The same people that seem to be arguing that the SSPX ought to be correcting Rome of Her Doctrinal "errors" are now admitting that the SSPX is a house divided against itself.

Really, you can't make this stuff up.

I have come to a decision that I have been leaning toward for quite awhile. I think I have finally collected enough data to render judgement.

The SSPX has done more harm than good.
I agree, but they have done good.
Just in my little case: I would have nowhere to go to the TLM the past 4 years if it were not for the Society, and I am sure this is the case with many.
Don't forget to pray for the dead.

ggreg

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Re: Sermon by Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer - SSPX
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2012, 03:36:pm »
I know of at least six cases.  I am sure there are more since I have only experienced SSPX in the English speaking world.

They're not isolated cases.  They are a leadership technique.

The SSPX has, over at least 20 years, silenced internal criticism with uncharitable methods.  I've given two examples here.

Another example would be Bishop Williamson ignoring the advice of the rector of the SSPX Seminary in Argentina and accepting and then ordaining Carlos Urrutigoity. When he was a seminarian at the Society of St. Pius X seminary in La Reja, Argentina, he was dismissed for homosexual behavior. He then obtained admission to the Society of St. Pius X seminary in Winona, Minnesota where +Williamson was the Rector . After his ordination Fr. Urrutigoity came under a cloud of accusations of homosexuality due to his particular and excessive attention to certain young seminarians he was teaching. Fr. Urrutigoity was finally dismissed from the Winona seminary after it was discovered that he was undertaking a secret project, which became the mission of the Society of St. John.

Bishop Fellay of the Society of St. Pius X warned Scranton Bishop James Timlin of the homosexual misconduct of Fr. Urrutigoity. Bishop Timlin sent his auxiliary bishop to interview the above-referenced seminarian but Bishop Timlin chose not to accept the accusations against Fr. Urrutigoity.

It appears to me that there is a clerical pride at work where certain priests and bishops see themselves as above all criticism and if warned of problems or why a policy is a bad policy they react defensively and shoot the messenger.  It can be found in the conciliar church as well as the SSPX, I don't deny that.  But the SSPX has it.

You post comments as though I never attended SSPX masses.  I started going to the SSPX in the late 1970s and continued without a break for 2.5 decades. It would be difficult to have much more experience of the SSPX than I have; as a lay person.

I'm not anti-SSPX but neither and I prepared to stay silent when I see the SSPX experiencing the very lack of trust and reaction to authoritarianism from its right wing priest, that it has fermented within its ranks over the years.

You're being rather cynical, moreover 6 cases out of 500 is very low. Nor can you pretend to have all the facts to make a competent judgment, I will certainly trust the society over posts on a forum, they may well have committed errors now and again, but they are not perfect, no one and no organisation, bar the  mystical body of Christ, is.

Moreover I fail to see how any of this is relevant to Fr Pfeiffer? He is being disciplined for disobedience and scandal, not because someone is being 'authoritarian'

Good points, although I am sympathetic to Father Pfeiffer. Many forum thread posts are nothing but high-tech lynchings. Anyone with access to the Internet can say anything about anyone!


The point is Trent Cath that Fr. Pfeiffer is calling +Fellay out for putting obedience and the "pray, pay and obey" attitude above all else when his camp of the SSPX have operated like that for years.  I don't know Fr. Pfeiffer, but I do know many of the priests taking a position against +Fellay.

There have been a core of priests in the SSPX who since the mid 1980s have fostered a very hard line to discent and behaved like autocrats.  Loosely speaking they are the same camp now that find themselves "rebelling" against the authority of +Fellay.

Gerard

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Re: Sermon by Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer - SSPX
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2012, 04:30:pm »
You know this is really getting laugh out loud funny.

The same people that seem to be arguing that the SSPX ought to be correcting Rome of Her Doctrinal "errors" are now admitting that the SSPX is a house divided against itself.

Really, you can't make this stuff up.

I have come to a decision that I have been leaning toward for quite awhile. I think I have finally collected enough data to render judgement.

The SSPX has done more harm than good.

Explain what you mean.  You must be operating under some incredibly foolish premises to come to the conclusion you've reached. 


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Re: Sermon by Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer - SSPX
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2012, 04:32:pm »

I have come to a decision that I have been leaning toward for quite awhile. I think I have finally collected enough data to render judgement.

The SSPX has done more harm than good.

Explain what you mean.  You must be operating under some incredibly foolish premises to come to the conclusion you've reached. 


Do explain...
"Nothing is more miserable than those people who never failed to attack their own salvation. When there was need to observe the Law, they trampled it under foot. Now that the Law has ceased to bind, they obstinately strive to observe it. What could be more pitiable that those who provoke God not only by transgressing the Law but also by keeping it? But at any rate the Jews say that they, too, adore God. God forbid that I say that. No Jew adores God! Who say so? The Son of God say so. For he said: "If you were to know my Father, you would also know me. But you neither know me nor do you know my Father". Could I produce a witness more trustworthy than the Son of God?"  St. John Chrysostom Sunday Homily

Gerard

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Re: Sermon by Fr. Joseph Pfeiffer - SSPX
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2012, 04:44:pm »
The point is Trent Cath that Fr. Pfeiffer is calling +Fellay out for putting obedience and the "pray, pay and obey" attitude above all else when his camp of the SSPX have operated like that for years.  I don't know Fr. Pfeiffer, but I do know many of the priests taking a position against +Fellay.

There have been a core of priests in the SSPX who since the mid 1980s have fostered a very hard line to discent and behaved like autocrats.  Loosely speaking they are the same camp now that find themselves "rebelling" against the authority of +Fellay.

What needs to be distinguished is that the power of authority can be used and used dramatically for the good.  A bunch of priests decide that the Pope is not the Pope.  Well....they've just become members in their own minds of a different Church, one where there might be a Pope or one where there is a Pope but he's not the guy whom the organization bases its mission on converting to the position to restore tradition.  They've already laid out plans to move and take as many souls as they can.  Why be nice?

Also, a priest complains about Bp Williamson's "slacks" letters, misses the point, blows them out of proportion and because actions don't happen or happen swiftly enough or perhaps he doesn't have a strong enough case to warrant an investigation, he's unhappy and "driven" out.  Maybe he was the one under investigation as a potential mole from the conciliar Church.  So, he then goes off to join the conciliar Church, leaves a series of assertions behind and we never see any evidence whatsoever that this man understood the crisis in the Church, was prepared to fight Rome for the faith.  So why did he join the SSPX in the first place?  


Pius XII exercised authority brutally at times, some times it was right sometimes it was wrong.  Pope John Paul II was brutal and wrong, he was also gentle and wrong.  

So...what is the formula for an impeccable exercise of authority?  

All I know is this...Fellay has changed his tune.  Fr. Pfeiffer, Bishop Williamson , Bp De Mallarais and a number of other priests have not.  They railed against Rome for specific things.  Fellay adopts the Roman attitude, they will of necessity rail against him if they are to be consistent.  

Only someone with a truly schismatic attitude would accept from Bishop Fellay what they reject from the Conciliar Popes.  


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