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Author Topic: Thank you and so long (switching to Orthodoxy)  (Read 12476 times)

In His Love

Re: Thank you and so long (switching to Orthodoxy)
« Reply #160 on: April 21, 2017, 02:58:am »
There has to be a visible Church on this planet -- and actually it is not the Roman-Catholic Church.
The earliest Fathers and martyrs of the Church would disagree with you.
"O Jesus, Whose adorable Face ravished my heart, I implore Thee to fix deep within me Thy Divine Image and to set me on fire with Thy Love, that I may be found worthy to come to the contemplation of Thy glorious Face in Heaven. Amen." - St. Therese of Lisieux

Guingamp

Re: Thank you and so long (switching to Orthodoxy)
« Reply #161 on: April 21, 2017, 03:27:am »
(...)The earliest Fathers and martyrs of the Church would disagree with you.
I know and I really would like to be wrong but I am sick of seeing people loosing their faith because they are simple church-going  catholics. And that's what is happening all of the time. I simply see no possibility to reconcile pre-VaticanII ecclesiology (indestructibility of the Church) with the post-VaticanII reality. Rome has lost the faith, Archbishop Lefebvre said and I believe he was absolutely right. But what's the consequence? Sedevacantism is no solution. It is not compatible with the idea that the Church is indestructible and that Peter (if Peter stands for the pope) is the rock. The idea that there is something like an ,,Eternal Rome" in contrast to the real modernist Rome does not seem to be compatible with the necessity of the existence of a visible Church.

 I simply cannot see any alternative to Orthodoxy because Orthodoxy has a visible Church, it has valid sacraments, it is faithful to the tradition of the Church. The two main differences are the filioque and the role of the pope. Concerning the filioque I am not sure what to think because - to be honest - the question has not bothered me until now and the role of the papacy is dependent upon the question if the papacy is able to preserve the holy Tradition and fight heresy. The top-down destruction of the Catholic Church in the recent time seems to prove to me that the pope is not the rock any longer. And to defend the idea of the papacy without the existence of faithful popes is nonsense.

In His Love

Re: Thank you and so long (switching to Orthodoxy)
« Reply #162 on: April 21, 2017, 03:50:am »
The filioque was dogmatically defined, and the Papacy as Catholics understand it is dogmatic as well. If you were to convert to Orthodoxy and take on their interpretations of things, you would commit very, very grave sins. Please think this through.

Remember the Arian crisis, which was so bad, it was even influencing the Pope. St. Athanasius said, "They have the buildings. We have the Faith." We have to keep the Faith as it was handed down to us, even when horrible things are happening and destroying the faith of others. We have to stay strong. Orthodoxy is not the answer.
"O Jesus, Whose adorable Face ravished my heart, I implore Thee to fix deep within me Thy Divine Image and to set me on fire with Thy Love, that I may be found worthy to come to the contemplation of Thy glorious Face in Heaven. Amen." - St. Therese of Lisieux

Guingamp

Re: Thank you and so long (switching to Orthodoxy)
« Reply #163 on: April 21, 2017, 04:34:am »
The filioque was dogmatically defined, and the Papacy as Catholics understand it is dogmatic as well. If you were to convert to Orthodoxy and take on their interpretations of things, you would commit very, very grave sins. Please think this through.
I know. I know that the reason for a conversion cannot be simply a dissatisfaction with the situation of the Church or something like that. The only possible reason is the conviction that the one side is wrong and that the other side is right. I won't take it easy but I think that it simply makes no sense that the Holy Spirit allows to strenghten the role of the pope in 1870 (and the dogma of Infabillity was a controversial issue) if the papacy becomes a central actor in  the destruction of the Catholic Religion. ,,Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.
" (Pastor aeternus, Chapter 3). But actually I believe that doing this would mean to follow a heretic....following the pope would mean to follow someone who is according the criteria of Pope Pius IX. or Pius X. an adherent of the synthesis of all heresies. And why should the Holy Spirit make it necessary to be obedient to someone who is teaching horrible things all the time? It is technically impossible to follow the pope and be obedient to him, because the different popes are teaching different religions. That should not be possible if the claims of the Church are trustworthy.
Quote
Remember the Arian crisis, which was so bad, it was even influencing the Pope. St. Athanasius said, "They have the buildings. We have the Faith." We have to keep the Faith as it was handed down to us, even when horrible things are happening and destroying the faith of others. We have to stay strong. Orthodoxy is not the answer.
The Arian crisis - in my opinion - supports Eastern Orthodoxy because it shows that the pope even in question of dogma is not the rock. The rock is Holy Tradition, the writings of the Fathers...It is necessary to judge the pope and one is forced to question if he is in accordance with Holy Tradition. And that is what the orthodox claim.

In His Love

Re: Thank you and so long (switching to Orthodoxy)
« Reply #164 on: April 21, 2017, 05:05:am »
But actually I believe that doing this would mean to follow a heretic....following the pope would mean to follow someone who is according the criteria of Pope Pius IX. or Pius X. an adherent of the synthesis of all heresies.
There have been heretical Popes in the past.

I'll let someone else here who is better informed about the problems inherent in Orthodoxy explain why conversion to it isn't a good move to make.

Our part is to stay safely inside the barque of Peter, outside of which there is no salvation, and pray. Pray for clarity. Pray for confusion and ambiguity to leave various parishes around the world. Pray for the salvation of souls.
"O Jesus, Whose adorable Face ravished my heart, I implore Thee to fix deep within me Thy Divine Image and to set me on fire with Thy Love, that I may be found worthy to come to the contemplation of Thy glorious Face in Heaven. Amen." - St. Therese of Lisieux


Guingamp

Re: Thank you and so long (switching to Orthodoxy)
« Reply #165 on: April 21, 2017, 05:22:am »
But actually I believe that doing this would mean to follow a heretic....following the pope would mean to follow someone who is according the criteria of Pope Pius IX. or Pius X. an adherent of the synthesis of all heresies.
There have been heretical Popes in the past.

I'll let someone else here who is better informed about the problems inherent in Orthodoxy explain why conversion to it isn't a good move to make.

Our part is to stay safely inside the barque of Peter, outside of which there is no salvation, and pray. Pray for clarity. Pray for confusion and ambiguity to leave various parishes around the world. Pray for the salvation of souls.
I would be very thankful if someone would explain to me the problems inherent in Orthodoxy and I absolutely do not think that Orthodoxy is an ocean of peace or something like that. I already mentioned the matter of divorce and contraception and especially the matter of divorce is quite shocking because Jesus is crystal clear that remarriage is not possible. In Germany (I do not know the situation in America) Orthodoxy is a church of immigrants and they do not seem to try to change that...that's - i believe - a grave mistake because if you believe that your religion is the right one, it is a duty to try to help others to find the truth. Nonetheless I think that the orthodox ecclesiology makes more sense than catholic ecclesiology in the aftermath of the Vatican Councils....but I am not totally convinced at the moment and so, yes, praying and studying seems to be the only way to find clarity.

BC

Re: Thank you and so long (switching to Orthodoxy)
« Reply #166 on: April 21, 2017, 08:47:am »
What has happened should not be possible if the claims of the Catholic Church are true.(...)
That's the point! The Church after Vatican II is a fountain of heresy. There is no way to argue that away. And aside from two or three dubious private revelations, there is no means to deal with it within the catholic system. The easiest way to lose your faith is to follow your bishop, follow your diocesan priest, to be obedient to the pope and read all the modernist stuff from Rome. A simple church-going layman without any skill or interest in dogmatic theology has no chance to stay catholic. At the moment I have trouble to discuss with evangelical christians because I fear that becoming catholic and obedient to the pope would only result in becoming a modernist who believes that the existence of different religions is the will of God and stuff like that.

There has to be a visible Church on this planet -- and actually it is not the Roman-Catholic Church.

Oh I agree, I can hardly bring myself to go all the way through with trying to convert Protestants because I don't know where to send them..........

It's terrible. 

It is my opinion that the Catholic Church is in Eclipse, as prophecied at La Salette.  I agree with you though largely that the average layman who is not going to make the effort cannot really keep the Faith.  I think the period is one of severe, unprecedented testing and chastisement for sin.  Following the modernism from most of the clergy is inevitably going to lead one to have a modernist Faith, which is not the Catholic Faith if we are honest.  I trust those more simple souls who are genuinely devoted to Our Blessed Mother and the Rosary will hopefully not be counted or fall into formal heresy. 

I am open to any explanation.  I have studied Catholicism and Church history for a long time and remain convinced it is the true Church.  Eastern Orthodoxy does not compel me in the same way.  The Devil, Freemasonry and Talmudic Judaism attacked and infiltrated the Catholic Church because it is the True Church.  This convinces me more than anything not to abandon it as it is a certain proof to its authenticity.

I think the situation is like Mary Magdalene and the Holy women at the Resurrection Tomb frantically asking "Where oh where have they taken Our Lord?"   It is a profound mystery as to the explanation of how the Papacy is kept in tact.  Have a read of this as it addresses the visibility question.

http://www.a-c-r-f.com/html/LHR_The-church-IS-eclipsed_18p.html

"Alone are those who have the True Faith and those who will be persecuted for having understood the eclipse of the Church.
The others see nothing and understand nothing. -Luis-Hubert Remy -from the book: L’Eglise Eclipsée (The Church in Eclipse)

"Fight, children of light, you, the few who can see. For now is the time of all times, the end of all ends."
(Words of Our Lady of La Salette to Melanie Calvat 1846 A.D.)

Was Cardinal Siri really the pope?  It certainly seems likely to me considering the evidence but not very probable. And I admit seems all the more doubtful with each passing year. 

http://eclipseofthechurch.com/

This is not an unqualified endorsement of this interpretation of what has happened but like I said I open to anything.  I am on the fence about sedevacantism, Resist and Recognize, Sede-Impeditism , etc. etc.  They all have their problems.  The Novus Ordo though as far as I can determine was a initiative of malice from Anti-Catholic forces and I refuse to give up on the Catholic Church because of it.

What I do currently, not being near a SSPX chapel any longer, is receive the sacraments at an Eastern Rite Catholic Church and go to confession from pre 1969 ordained Latin Rite priests, where I can be sure they are valid priests.  I try to pray the Rosary everyday begging God to save me and all those of good will and to bring a remedy through His mercy in restoring His Church.  I am trying to wait it out. 
Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:“Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life."

Fr. William Jurgens: “If there were not a constant tradition in the Fathers that the Gospel message of ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ is to be taken absolutely, it would be easy to say that Our Savior simply did not see fit to mention the obvious exceptions of invincible ignorance and physical impossibility.  But the tradition in fact is there; and it is likely enough to be found so constant as to constitute revelation.” (Faith of the Early Fathers)

Melkite

Re: Thank you and so long (switching to Orthodoxy)
« Reply #167 on: April 21, 2017, 09:52:am »
What I do currently, not being near a SSPX chapel any longer, is receive the sacraments at an Eastern Rite Catholic Church and go to confession from pre 1969 ordained Latin Rite priests, where I can be sure they are valid priests.  I try to pray the Rosary everyday begging God to save me and all those of good will and to bring a remedy through His mercy in restoring His Church.  I am trying to wait it out.

Why do you receive sacraments at an Eastern Catholic parish, but only go to confession to priests of the Latin Church?  If the eastern priests are validly ordained enough to sanctify bread and wine, do you have reason to doubt their ability to wash away your sins?

Apparently, there is a UGCC offshoot affiliated with the SSPX, SSJK who have ordained priests and reject de-Latinization.  I don't know to what extent they still are effectively Eastern, nor do I know if they have any parishes outside of Ukraine, but if you desire to go to an SSPX chapel and none are around, perhaps SSJK might be worth looking into?
I am currently a lukewarm, fence-sitting Catholic/Deist, with neither the fortitude to fully accept Catholicism nor to fully abandon it.  Please pray for me.

Guingamp

Re: Thank you and so long (switching to Orthodoxy)
« Reply #168 on: April 21, 2017, 09:58:am »
The Siri-thesis is a desperate elusion. I read Siri's Gethsemani and it is a solid book but there is simply no shimmer of evidence that he was the pope. He accepted Paul VI., he accepted John Paul II. and he celebrated the new mass. He did not even seem to have problems with Vatican II...
Quote
The Devil, Freemasonry and Talmudic Judaism attacked and infiltrated the Catholic Church because it is the True Church.  This convinces me more than anything not to abandon it as it is a certain proof to its authenticity.
That's a good point. The hate of the Freemasonry for the Catholic Church is really a piece of evidence that the Roman Church is the Church of Christ. However the Freemasonry also seems to hate the Orthodox Church and if you read some books or websites written by Orthodox Tradtionalists you will quickly see that they are also convinced of the fact that the masons try to destroy the Orthodox Church. 


Guingamp

Re: Thank you and so long (switching to Orthodoxy)
« Reply #169 on: April 21, 2017, 10:19:am »
I would like to modify my post but it does not seem to be possible at the moment... ???

In the last weeks I started to go to Orthodox liturgy. It is a ROCOR-church and I really like it. It is foreign to me and I would say that I prefer the Latin mass, nonetheless it is a beautiful way of praising God. The whole liturgy is theocentric; the sermons are in russian and I do not speak russian but they are translated.
The situation now, being somewhere between Orthodoxy and some kind of traditionalist Catholicism is extremly arduous and I really hope that God will give me the grace to decide soon. However, the personal consequences are very grave because I have studied theology and philosophy and won't be able to work for the conciliar church...for a lay theologian in Germany the church is usually the only possible employer.
I am studying the writings of the Fathers at the moment in a hopefully illuminating and helpful way....


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