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Author Topic: Douay-Rheims or Knox Bible?  (Read 567 times)

MichaelNZ

Douay-Rheims or Knox Bible?
« on: March 19, 2017, 05:01:am »
Yesterday I was listening to an episode of Catholic Answers Live where someone brought up the Douay-Rheims Bible. The apologist (can't remember who) said that the DR has lots of mistakes and Ronald Knox had to correct them in his version of the Bible. He didn't bring up any of those mistakes, but just made the assertion.

I have a Douay-Rheims Bible and a couple of Knox Bibles. Which one should I use, in the light of the above?

(I'd like to get my hands on a Douay-Confraternity Bible but the only ones I've seen for sale in New Zealand so far are out of my price range).

In His Love

Re: Douay-Rheims or Knox Bible?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2017, 06:15:am »
Did he say what those supposed "mistakes" were?

I use the Douay-Rheims. It's my favorite.
"O Jesus, Whose adorable Face ravished my heart, I implore Thee to fix deep within me Thy Divine Image and to set me on fire with Thy Love, that I may be found worthy to come to the contemplation of Thy glorious Face in Heaven. Amen." - St. Therese of Lisieux

Credidi Propter

Re: Douay-Rheims or Knox Bible?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2017, 11:19:am »
There are no mistakes in the Douay-Rheims Bible. It is a direct, word by word translation from the Latin. It has some archaic wording, including many of the book titles, and the psalm numbering is different, but those aren't errors. They might make the book a little less useful for apologetics purposes, and it may not be the most enjoyable translation for some, but there's nothing wrong with it. You have to be careful with some of the people they have on Catholic Answers. I'm sure they have some good guests, but some of them are so steeped in ressourcement theology that they can't see beyond it. They LOVE scripture, the 20th century ressourcement theologians' interpretations of the Early Church Fathers, the documents of Vatican II and the postconciliar papal writings, and it would seem very little else.

formerbuddhist

Re: Douay-Rheims or Knox Bible?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2017, 12:51:pm »
All English Bibles are translations, sometimes translations of translations. There is more than one way to translate various words or phrases, differences in say, the LXX as opposed to the Masoretic text, and differences between the old Vulgate as opposed to the Clementine Vulgate.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing. 

The Knox and the Douay are just different versions of the same scriptures, some prefer the former, some prefer the latter. Personally I prefer the Knox version, but that's just my preference. If you like the Douay Challoner version than use it. It's hallowed by Catholic Tradition in the English speaking world and, correct me if I'm wrong, still considered acceptable to use even by modern churchman. I think if I recall correctly the USCCB used to have something on their website about how the Douay is still perfectly acceptable.

Catholic Answers serves a purpose I suppose, but it certainly can become a hothouse atmosphere of recent converts and those addicted to winning arguments or having ready answers for every question. At some point it's best to step away from that sometimes toxic scene.

Walk before God in simplicity, and not in subtleties of the mind. Simplicity brings faith; but subtle and intricate speculations bring conceit; and conceit brings withdrawal from God. -Saint Isaac of Syria, Directions on Spiritual Training


"It is impossible in human terms to exaggerate the importance of being in a church or chapel before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. I very seldom repeat what I say. Let me repeat this sentence. It is impossible in human language to exaggerate the importance of being in a chapel or church before the Blessed Sacrament as often and for as long as our duties and state of life allow. That sentence is the talisman of the highest sanctity. "Father John Hardon

Justin Alphonsus

Re: Douay-Rheims or Knox Bible?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 09:56:am »
All English Bibles are translations, sometimes translations of translations. There is more than one way to translate various words or phrases, differences in say, the LXX as opposed to the Masoretic text, and differences between the old Vulgate as opposed to the Clementine Vulgate.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing. 

The Knox and the Douay are just different versions of the same scriptures, some prefer the former, some prefer the latter. Personally I prefer the Knox version, but that's just my preference. If you like the Douay Challoner version than use it. It's hallowed by Catholic Tradition in the English speaking world and, correct me if I'm wrong, still considered acceptable to use even by modern churchman. I think if I recall correctly the USCCB used to have something on their website about how the Douay is still perfectly acceptable.

Catholic Answers serves a purpose I suppose, but it certainly can become a hothouse atmosphere of recent converts and those addicted to winning arguments or having ready answers for every question. At some point it's best to step away from that sometimes toxic scene.

I would agree on points two and three here.  Whichever version that you prefer to use is fine, both are good bibles and both will give you a good understanding of the Scriptures, so don't worry about what Joe Shmo tells ya.  I personally use the Douay-Rheims (but I like Knox a lot). I don't know why, but if I ain't hearing "thou, thee, thy, thine" or "Shew unto us, O Lord" I really just can't take it serious.

And FB is right about the Catholic Answers, or really any online discussion site (yes this includes Fisheaters, sorry!).  When I converted it really tickled my pride thinking I had all the answers to everyone's questions (and I still do, become Catholic, "and do everything he tells you"  :)),  but, from personal experience, I would recommend avoiding controversial discussions or debates.  They can get really nasty, especially with protestants, atheists, and particularly apostates.  We should always get our spiritual lives in order before we go into arguing and debating.  (I am not saying that there is anything wrong with studying apologetics nor discussion and healthy debate, not at all, it can be a very good thing, but the temptation to get argumentative and proud is always there, and an easy ditch to fall into. )  Anyway, that is just my two cents.


mpk1987

Re: Douay-Rheims or Knox Bible?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2017, 03:46:pm »
Yesterday I was listening to an episode of Catholic Answers Live where someone brought up the Douay-Rheims Bible. The apologist (can't remember who) said that the DR has lots of mistakes and Ronald Knox had to correct them in his version of the Bible. He didn't bring up any of those mistakes, but just made the assertion.

I have a Douay-Rheims Bible and a couple of Knox Bibles. Which one should I use, in the light of the above?

(I'd like to get my hands on a Douay-Confraternity Bible but the only ones I've seen for sale in New Zealand so far are out of my price range).

I don't know what your budget is, but I found this one (under Used - Like New) for $35 and it appears shipping for books is $4.99 to NZ.  https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Testament-Douay-Calloner-Psalms-Confraternity/dp/B000SPHCLW

I actually found one of these at Half-Price books for $20!  It's a beautiful book.  It's a wonderful family bible.  It has a miniature Catholic encyclopedia, a list of baby names and their importance (saints, etc.), an area to record your family baptisms, confirmations, weddings, etc., paintings of biblical scenes by the old masters, and lots more.

Paul

Re: Douay-Rheims or Knox Bible?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2017, 03:48:am »
Did he say what those supposed "mistakes" were?

Probably includes Genesis 3:15.

MagisterMusicae

Re: Douay-Rheims or Knox Bible?
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2017, 12:18:pm »
There are no mistakes in the Douay-Rheims Bible. It is a direct, word by word translation from the Latin. It has some archaic wording, including many of the book titles, and the psalm numbering is different, but those aren't errors.

Both are "translations of the Latin Vulgate", so in fact they claim to represent the same original text. The D-R and Knox have two different purposes, however.

The Douay is a literal translation. The Knox is a literary translation.

This means the D-R means to provide a word-for-word transliteration from Latin into 16th century English. Msgr. Knox, however, was trying to give the sense of the text in mid-20th century English ideas.

Understood that way, you can see, neither is "better" but both serve well for certain purposes, and poorly for others. The D-R is great if you want to understand the meaning of the Latin word that is translated, and good if you want to do apologetics, since its verbiage isn't paraphrasing the Latin, but literally translating. For reading Scripture in a setting for meditation, the Knox would be a far better choice, since it is designed to be a beautiful literary work, which is more apt to engender images for contemplation.

Given this, we can explain several of the odd phrases in the English of the D-R, especially in the Psalms, versus the Knox.

Psalm 15 (16). 3-4
Latin : Sanctis qui sunt in terra ejus, mirificavit omnes voluntates meas in eis. Multiplicatæ sunt infirmitates eorum : postea acceleraverunt. Non congregabo conventicula eorum de sanguinibus,
nec memor ero nominum eorum per labia mea.
D-R : To the saints, who are in his land, he hath made wonderful all my desires in them. Their infirmities were multiplied: afterwards they made haste. I will not gather together their meetings for blood offerings: nor will I be mindful of their names by my lips.
Knox :  There are faithful souls in this land of his; wondrous delight he gives me in their companionship. What do they do but lay up fresh store of sorrows, that betake themselves to alien gods? Not with these will I pour out the blood of sacrifice; I will not take forbidden names on my lips.

Comment :

The Latin itself is pretty obscure here, because if you look at verses 1-4 there seem to be several independent thoughts going on. It's also hard to keep up with the personal pronouns being used. In two verses here we have four different personal pronouns. If they all refer to the same thing, the text makes no sense—The "saints" who are wonderful are suffering, getting faster, then meeting for blood offerings, and not to be even spoken of by the just psalmist? Hardly. The D-R does not try to make sense of it, just translates.

Knox has tried to coordinate the phrases so they follow a thread. In doing so he has to add expressions which could be implied but are missing. Whether that's the real original meaning, who can say for certain, but it is one logical reading. The psalm opposes faithful souls vs. those which are not faithful and unlike the psalmist and saints don't confess God as God. Thus it's the saints who are wonderful for the psalmist, but the unfaithful who increase their wickedness (by idolatry) and the psalmist will have no part with these pagans, nor even mention the idols' names.

Psalm 76 (77). 18-21
Latin : Multitudo sonitus aquarum; vocem dederunt nubes. Etenim sagittæ tuæ transeunt; vox tonitrui tui in rota. Illuxerunt coruscationes tuæ orbi terræ; commota est, et contremuit terra. In mari via tua, et semitæ tuæ in aquis multis, et vestigia tua non cognoscentur. Deduxisti sicut oves populum tuum, in manu Moysi et Aaron.
D-R :  Great was the noise of the waters: the clouds sent out a sound. For thy arrows pass: The voice of thy thunder in a wheel. Thy lightnings enlightened the world: the earth shook and trembled. Thy way is in the sea, and thy paths in many waters: and thy footsteps shall not be known. Thou hast conducted thy people like sheep, by the hand of Moses and Aaron.
Knox : How the waves roared, how the clouds volleyed rain, what echoes from their midst! To and fro thy arrows passed, thy crackling thunders rolled, till all the world shone with thy lightning, and the troubled earth shook. Thy way led through the sea, the deep tide made a road for thee, and none may read the traces of thy passage, where thou, with Moses and Aaron for thy shepherds, didst bring thy people out on their journey.

Comment :

It should be obvious that the poetic style of the Latin imagery isn't well translated in the D-R, but the literary style is reproduced in Knox. One of the worst is this "thunder in a wheel". The image is of the rolling clap of thunder, so "thy crackling thunders rolled" is a far better translation. The odd plurals like the "paths" in "many waters" also don't accurately reflect in English the parting of the Red Sea, and a casual read in the D-R would have trouble identifying this psalm with the Exodus until the very last verse.


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