FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: Aspergers and ADHD
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
(07-26-2009, 03:36 PM)ResiduumRevertetur Wrote: [ -> ]Mine (12 y.o.) only looks me in the eye when I make him do it. It's as tho somehow that's going to fix the problem. All of a sudden, maybe, just maybe, this time, I'll break through. But it doesn't happen. He just stares and I hug him and he goes away again. Sometimes I despair that we'll never have a better relationship and it frustrates him, too, because he compares himself to other people all the time.

The reason why he (if he is Asperger's) only looks you in the eye when you make him do it is because it is meaningless to him. It only distracts him and gives him no information. He likely also doesn't know why you tell him to do it. He, like all humans, will automatically see others through his own eyes and see others as seeing the world as he does (just like you ;)) and he doesn't know the depth on non verbal communication and the amount of communication that NT's do with their faces/eyes. That blank look he probably has is a result of this; communication is not done that way for him. He doesn't communicate that way and he doesn't receive communication from others in that way (if he is young enough, other people's faces are very confusing and looking away from your face is a necessity for communication). Interestingly (to me) a collection of people with AS also do not look at each other's faces. From what I've noticed, eye and facial movement isn't important at all, as long as you can hear the other. You will never "break through" because there is nothing to break through, you can however probably greatly increase communication and understanding with him if you do it in a way he and you can understand. (If you want discuss these things more, you can PM or email me. I'm always glad to help.) I've noticed that the most problems for people with AS and society are doing this time of pre-adulthood, and those who are mature are able to overcome problems, but do not feel a need to share that information. I'm trying to write about the subject more to help others and I hope to get a useful book written soon about it. I would write more about this, but it isn't something which should be written publically because I'd have to write it generically and it may give the wrong impression for those looking for more personal responses.

Also, assuming average physical development, he is about to be confronted with an entirely new social structure (teenagers) which is confusing enough for NT's. It may be in his and your best interest to establish good communication before he is confronted with this difficult time so he thinks to come to you with problems (especially if he is going to be around NT people his age in any great numbers, especially at school).
Is autism somehow on the increase, or are methods of detection just getting better? Living with this sort of condition/"alternative consciousness" must have been much more difficult before people knew what it was. Also... what is the cause exactly? Is it something genetic?
(07-26-2009, 05:38 PM)Melita Wrote: [ -> ]Is autism somehow on the increase, or are methods of detection just getting better?
It is mostly genetic, for Asperger's. It is on the spectrum on normal characteristics of people. Classical Autism is not a part of my thoughts....that is something else entirely.

There is a theory that AS is actually just an extreme male personality.

Interestingly, in Silicon Valley (US area with high concentration of CS and tech fields) has a higher concentation of Asperger's, because of the characteristics of AS being found in programmers as a whole (there is no unique characteristic of AS, just a certain level of them) and this results in these characteristics being more concentrated. I don't know if the percentages have gone up, but the strenghts of people with AS are more in demand these days and it may be increasing in some areas because of that.

Quote:Living with this sort of condition/"alternative consciousness" must have been much more difficult before people knew what it was. Also... what is the cause exactly? Is it something genetic?
Before it was identified, it probably wasn't any bigger a problem as a whole. The only real problem with AS is other people. It almost entirely depends on society's ability to not reject different people and the ability of the individual to get along with them as best they can. This is one reason why the teenage years are so hard...because teenage NTs are selfish, judgemental and asssholes as a whole.

The ability of a person with an AS personality to live as an adult is less of a problem if they are able to use their strengths in some way and there are plenty of fields where they can work fine. The biggest problem as an adult is if they wanted to socialise more or have more friends, which is less of a problem because their social needs are less complex than NTs.

Mostly, for adults, there is a higher emotional maturity (despite it being less important, they do have all the same emotions as anyone else) and more experience, and the only regret is not learning it sooner. That is one reason I'm writing. It seems rare for adults with AS to give any helpful advice or information to anyone else because they are ok now so I'm trying to write a "manual" for people with AS and people with children, friends, parents, etc with AS.
All teenagers are by nature self centered, my son is also narcissusistic, and like you haughty, I have never worried about his worldly success... I know he'll be set to fend for himself..... I fear for his faith (remember rosarium Parents do have special  God given rights over their children) You assume other people are wrong for finding something wrong with the way AS peeps treat others...I say to those with AS ...With great power comes great responsability. I'll clarify l8r
(07-26-2009, 05:46 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]Before it was identified, it probably wasn't any bigger a problem as a whole. The only real problem with AS is other people. It almost entirely depends on society's ability to not reject different people and the ability of the individual to get along with them as best they can. This is one reason why the teenage years are so hard...because teenage NTs are selfish, judgemental and asssholes as a whole.

So the only problem with Asperger's is other people, eh? Isn't that the way it is with everyone -- we're fine, it's everybody else who's the problem because they make us lose our temper/think lustful thoughts/keep us from getting what we want, etc.? This attitude is not only untrue, it is extremely ungrateful toward the parents of Asperger's kids, who from what I can make out go through hell trying to understand and help their kids. And unfair to the siblings, probably, who lose out on their parents' attention and time because of the different brother or sister.

It's one thing to ask for people to try to be understanding and accepting of people with Asperger's and see their gifts. It's another to present them as (this seems to be your implication) almost a separate race, superior and self-sufficient. It is offensive and also, I think, unrealistic. If there's no problem with Aspies except those mean, dull normals, how come so many of them can't even take care of themselves without significant help from their "normal" families and institutions? It can't all be because of a society that doesn't understand them.
(07-26-2009, 04:30 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]mmmmm> im no expert. but i used to teach GOJU RYU to kids. has anyone tried a traditional martial art program for there wee ones with asperges? traditional Japanese martial arts such as GOJU (yes the original form was Okinawan but i taught the yamaguchi lineage of GOJU) highly ritualized. it can and does build confidence not just in confrontations but physically as well i taught a few extremely clumsy kids and at first i was thinkin my God these lads are hammered but after 6 months they could do Kata solid. and this in turn helped with clumsiness outside the dojo. we spent allot of time with eye training because how one places the eyes betrays weakness or can offend greatly. we did not spend allot for time on sparring or mat work. some but the focus in the kids program was building confidence and muscle memory. which had a good effect on concentration outside the dojo. none of the wee ens i taught had asperges though.
im just offering this as an alternative to meds.
also GOJU is not for everyone. but there is plenty of martial arts out there.

The book I mentioned above also suggests taking martial arts classes.
(07-27-2009, 06:16 AM)voxpopulisuxx Wrote: [ -> ]All teenagers are by nature self centered, my son is also narcissusistic, and like you haughty, I have never worried about his worldly success... I know he'll be set to fend for himself..... I fear for his faith (remember rosarium Parents do have special  God given rights over their children)
Yes, of course, but NT teenagers are quite different. They are very socially minded and it is hard for a teenager with AS to be around them no matter how they are.

Quote:You assume other people are wrong for finding something wrong with the way AS peeps treat others...I say to those with AS ...With great power comes great responsability. I'll clarify l8r
Well, if they get bitten by radioactive spiders, they will hopefully follow you advice :)

(07-27-2009, 08:36 AM)Satori Wrote: [ -> ]So the only problem with Asperger's is other people, eh? Isn't that the way it is with everyone -- we're fine, it's everybody else who's the problem because they make us lose our temper/think lustful thoughts/keep us from getting what we want, etc.? This attitude is not only untrue, it is extremely ungrateful toward the parents of Asperger's kids, who from what I can make out go through hell trying to understand and help their kids. And unfair to the siblings, probably, who lose out on their parents' attention and time because of the different brother or sister.
Dr. Tony Atwood, a prominent doctor in the field and specialises in Asperger's, said that. Just because I said it it gets a negative reaction...

It is true. The only problem with AS is that it causes social problems with NT and since there are more NTs than AS, the NT's rules are the way to go. It is a fact. A "society" of people with AS would not have any problems, and a person with an NT personality would have "problems" because of a different social structure. It isn't a matter of blame or who is the "problem". The problem is not found in individuals.

Yes, parents have a very hard time. I've seen them in tears trying to understand their children. They have come to me (as an adult) for help. I know of their struggles...also, I was there at one point. The problem is lack of knowledge and understanding. It goes both ways. If a person with AS has trouble communicating with NTs, then an NT will have the same trouble communicating with AS. A person with AS can learn (obviously) and adapt, but this takes a certain level of intellectual ability and most imporantly, a lot of time. A person with AS by oneself will need a long time to learn and mature to the point where the ages 1-18 are mostly wasted. I do not believe this has to be. It is only wasted because everyone starts more or less from scratch. If I could go back, there are  lot of things I could explain to myself to help me during that time period. Seeing other people struggle with similiar situations, both parents and children, I have come to think that it is AS's fault this problem exists. It is AS's fault that few who are older and more experienced have tried to help the others. We and our families all go through 20 years of hardship and collect a lot of experience and knowledge and then reach a level where things are "ok", and then we clam up and don't tell anyone else what we have learned.

Quote:It's one thing to ask for people to try to be understanding and accepting of people with Asperger's and see their gifts.
One doesn't have to be accepting, just not intrusive. No one faults a foreigner for not speaking English well (I'm an American), no one faults a blind man for not seeing, no one faults a tall person for not being comfortable in some cars, why can't other people realise that some people are not the same when it comes to personal communication? Actually, almost everyone does to some degree, it is society as a whole which cannot (which makes sense).

Quote:It's another to present them as (this seems to be your implication) almost a separate race, superior and self-sufficient. It is offensive and also, I think, unrealistic.
I didn't say that, which you acknowledge, so there is no reason to bring that up, eh?

I don't know anyone who has such beliefs and no one here as shown them. My statements about myself are possibly strongly worded because they are about me. I'm sorry if I don't bow down and say "I'm just a person with AS and totally pathetic". There is no difference between people with an AS personality and a person with an NT personality except in socialisation.

Quote:If there's no problem with Aspies except those mean, dull normals, how come so many of them can't even take care of themselves without significant help from their "normal" families and institutions? It can't all be because of a society that doesn't understand them.
In what way "take care of themselves"? I know of no widespread institutional care for people with AS so perhaps you are confusing AS with something else? Most people with AS can take care of themselves just fine and can succeed in many fields. Many also don't go as far as they are capable because of problems which arise during life related to their personality though.

Perhaps I should share a little information on how my view of the world progressed so my statements may make more sense (especially about teenagers).

When I was little, I was a skinny slightly short kid. I was physically active, but not when in school (I preferred to read on the playground). Kids would tease me I think, but I didn't realise it or care and it was just the way things were. I also spent a lot of time reading and learning and very little time with other people (considering how other people treated me, avoiding them was a good policy). Around 3d grade, I was noticed for my academic ability, so during the next few years (up to 8th grade), the focus was on learning and studying only. I had no desire to socialise. People still teased me, but I didn't mind.

Then, I started to mature physically, yet my emotional maturity was slow, so I ended up growing up while having an immature social view. I decided that for high school I would dress better and decided to wear clothes which are more "formal" (but they aren't really formal). I also had decided I wanted to join the military when I was 13 and had spent a lot of time training myself to be physically fit (I had read a very good article in reader's digest about the physical aspect which was daunting to me at the time, so I wanted to start early). So, by the time I was in high school, I had grown a lot, was very fit and dressed rather neat, but I had not emotionally matured and was essentially the same as I had always been in that regard. The first day of high school I was mistaken for a senior by a reporter. Also, many of the other "kids" "teased" me, mostly girls. I ignored them as I have always done and didn't care. As long as they didn't take my stuff or hurt me, I didn't care what they said. However, I didn't realise they weren't teasing me. What they were actually doing wouldn't be realised for about 2 years. Also keep in mind I was Catholic then as well. I was never that talkative, so most people actually didn't realise what I thought and was probably just thought to be shy (I suppose, I never talked with them much) When emotional understanding did come, I was shocked. First, I realised that the teasing I had experienced was not just "the way it was", but a choice on their part. I also realised that all those who "teased" me in high school were not teasing me, they were flirting and making lewd propositions about which they were serious. Also, the newfound respect I had from various people, was a result of my physical and mental abilities, which were not really "me". People teased me when I was short and uninformed, people respected me when I was fit and smart. People, in my view, were very shallow and I resented them because of the way they treated me.

During this time, I had met others who had AS or AS like personalities and I had always gotten along with them. So is it any surprise I have any vestigial disdain for NTs as a whole? Now, as I've grown and learned, I'm much better at interacting with NTs and NTs mellow after a while from being teenagers so we don't have any conflicts (I see a lot of people I knew from childhood, but they don't know me I think, and they treat me very differently). We are all somewhat slaves to our personality (an NT can't help be what they are any more than an AS) it seems.

More importantly, during all this time, no one ever actually helped me learn about other people. I had to do it myself. I did see a few psychologists, but even they didn't give me useful information. Telling me to look people in the eyes when talking or listening to them is of limited use. Telling me why I should, to avoid giving a negative wrong impression would have been much more useful.

My experience is my experience and it tells me I'm better off with AS than NT, even if the first 17 years of my life were confusing.
Pssst, Rosarium, everybody's first 17 years were confusing. Not downplaying, just saying. I don't know if it may help your understanding of society to realize that most of us felt pretty similar to that growing up. The people you were bitter about for teasing you or flirting with you were in just as much disconnect about how to "get along" as you, probably. I had the same experience as you just described growing up (except I'm a girl, so change those types of things) and Autism runs in my family (not AS, even my son is on a different part of the spectrum, my aunt was mentally retarded, with autism, and had to be cared for by our family) and I struggle with it everyday, but you'd probably never know it. I was called the weird girl in elementary school and people  were friends with me on dares. Have I been bitter? Hell yeah, but it's not the fault of everyone who was different from me, but only a small group of people.  just saying that we can't be wrapped up into 2 neat groups, though that might make your calculations easier. Thanks so much for your input in this discussion, I think it's very helpful to a lot of people.
(07-27-2009, 11:36 AM)ResiduumRevertetur Wrote: [ -> ]Pssst, Rosarium, everybody's first 17 years were confusing. Not downplaying, just saying. I don't know if it may help your understanding of society to realize that most of us felt pretty similar to that growing up.
I already said that:

Quote:Also, assuming average physical development, he is about to be confronted with an entirely new social structure (teenagers) which is confusing enough for NT's.

Quote: The people you were bitter about for teasing you or flirting with you were in just as much disconnect about how to "get along" as you, probably.
No, they weren't. They were all probably very "experienced".

Quote: I had the same experience as you just described growing up (except I'm a girl, so change those types of things) and Autism runs in my family (not AS, even my son is on a different part of the spectrum, my aunt was mentally retarded, with autism, and had to be cared for by our family) and I struggle with it everyday, but you'd probably never know it. I was called the weird girl in elementary school and people  were friends with me on dares. Have I been bitter? Hell yeah, but it's not the fault of everyone who was different from me, but only a small group of people.  just saying that we can't be wrapped up into 2 neat groups, though that might make your calculations easier.
Yes, on this thread, I'm only addressing NT's and AS's, not other forms of autism or other disorders. I'm assuming some form of normality on everyone's part. An NT or AS can have any disorder as well, which complicates things, and they can have any other characteristic. There are also "other things" about me, but I'm ignoring those in this dicussion although if this discussion were about me, they would be very significant.

Quote:Thanks so much for your input in this discussion, I think it's very helpful to a lot of people.
I hope so. :) If you want more personal responses, feel free to contact me with PM or email.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14