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LaRoza Wrote:
Satori Wrote:I'm curious about some of LaRoza's remarks. Are people with Aspergers unemotional or something? I don't think I've ever known one personally.

Not unemotional (schizoid personality disorder: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_pe...y_disorder) but different.

The problems with AS come from reactions by society and to society. It isn't a disorder, but a big difference. You probably do know or have known people with AS or that could be described as AS.

Think of an absent minded professor, socially awkward geek, or something like that.

I have been following this and the other thread on AD/HD/Asperger's.  Having two AD/HD sons and having a co-worker's son who has Asperger's as our office runner for the last two years, I had said to Deimateralma before these threads even started that I suspected many on this site to have either AD/HD or Asperger's just from their posts or other things that they have told us.  It is interesting to see that I wasn't that far off the mark.

I tend to agree with LaRoza that whatever label you want to put on it, folks with AD/HD, Asperger's, Autism Spectrum (I hate the term Disorder.) are just folks who's way of viewing/coping with the world is different from the majority. 

With my sons I did not focus on what they couldn't do but always encouraged them to find what they enjoyed and wanted to do and be the best they could be at that.  My oldest son is now an artist and my youngest son wants to be a Scientist. 

I think Quis is right that in raising a child with these attributes, one must first get their attention, and then be very direct in teaching what they can and cannot do.  Most of the children I've met with AD/HD/Aspergers are bright enough to learn what's expected if one is direct and it has also been my experience that like other children they are more than willing to please if they haven't been treated harshly/unduly criticized etc.

I'm an NT and with all my boys (my third son is dyslexic) I've had to learn to think outside of the box in dealing with them and teaching them.  Each child/person is different and a unique gift from God.

My prayers are with those who are having difficulties.
orate Wrote:I have been following this and the other thread on AD/HD/Asperger's.  Having two AD/HD sons and having a co-worker's son who has Asperger's as our office runner for the last two years, I had said to Deimateralma before these threads even started that I suspected many on this site to have either AD/HD or Asperger's just from their posts or other things that they have told us.
There are usually a lot on web forums. At social gatherings, not so much :)

Quote:It is interesting to see that I wasn't that far off the mark.

I tend to agree with LaRoza that whatever label you want to put on it, folks with AD/HD, Asperger's, Autism Spectrum (I hate the term Disorder.) are just folks who's way of viewing/coping with the world is different from the majority. 
Indeed. For those who have no problems (no problems with school, family or work), I see no point to have any sort of psychologist intervention. It is just a label otherwise and quite pointless.


OK, well, our daughter was "different". Various frightening events led to us seeking a Dr.'s help, and she underwent a 4-hour testing, during which her dad and I just prayed and tried to breathe. It was interesting; they said she had Asperger's and ADHD, and sent us to a kid's Psych. Dr. specializing in that; they also graciously allowed us to borrow a stack of books from their parents' resource library.

It became clear to me that not only does my daughter have these, but both of her parents do, too. When we went to the Psychologist, he sat us down (child was coloring in the next room) and immediately assured us that, since we were both "high-functioning", she would no doubt be alright. I was blown away; all my life, I have had "issues"; but since I was also gifted in various ways, I got by alright. As someone pointed out, after puberty, it's easier. But I had never known there was a name for all of the experience that made up my life; or that my husband and I could so casually be diagnosed after a few minutes with a professional.

My husband is a painter (artist) and is chair of a big University Art dept. He hates being dept. chair! But he was asked to fill in for a year or two, twice; he was like the bank worker mentioned, always careful to do a good job, honest, dependable, selfless. So they made him offers until it was too much to refuse: the house needed some work, being 170 years old! I went to a Catholic College that my parents selected, right out of h.s., even though for various reasons I felt unready socially and emotionally. I was a Philosophy major and Music (voice) minor; after 2 years, I left to get a degree in Culinary Arts; because I needed job skills. I was another hard worker, focused and intelligent; I did some really awesome things.

LaRoza is also gifted in making things (his beautiful rosaries!!! that he makes lovingly as an act of oblation and offers free! His is a beautiful soul, folks; I have been laid up with a painful scoliosis-related problem, for weeks, and found his free-rosary ad, and "about me" stuff. The kid is only 20! So I sent him a cheery encouragement, thanking him for his generosity. (Called him a girl, because he was evasive in the required field "gender".) So, we had a good bit of email activity, during which I made myself a little tiresome; look at the length of THIS reply! I have nothing to do until it's time to take my next muscle relaxant. Besides pray, and bother my fellow fisheaters. When I realized I had been overdoing it, and apologized, he was gracious, gentle, and gallant about it. Christ our Lord wouldn't have answered differently. And he of course said he was always there, but perhaps I would enjoy joining Fisheaters? (so, blame him:) )

LaRoza is a brilliant programmer! He knows, I would guess Everything. Right now, like half the population, he is looking for a job. He stints himself on food in order to pay for his rosary supplies, and he gives the rosaries away free. He prays a lot, and leads a rather Spartan existence. Listen, you guys: once the scales have fallen from your eyes, you can read the lives of the saints and find AS over and over again. Great self-donation; living what they believe instead of talking; great humility (lack of social ease helps make a person retiring and contemplative); super-sensitivity; perceptiveness and spiritual giftedness.

Look for Aspies among the saints and mystics; look for and find them among all of the people you know who are gifted in such diverse areas as electronics, art, music, mathematics, philosophty, theology, the non-diocesan clergy and cloistered orders; as well as writers, physicists, and fine craftsmen of every sort. That lady who teaches Latin in my daughter's homeschool group, and who plays in the symphony (3 instruments) is an Aspie, though she doesn't know it. Have a favorite glassblower or actor, filmmaker, composer, conductor, poet, calligrapher? Most likely, an Aspie. You've heard that Einstein, Edison, Beethoven, and Mozart were Aspies; that is only the tip of the iceberg. Beatrix potter? All of the poets, maybe; maybe most painters; Tasha Tudor, the Brontes... They think outside of the box, are often extra-perceptive/intuitive/sensitive; and are brilliant and often amazingly creative. YOU might have a touch of AS, if you test as an introvert and are addicted to reading and learning new things, or going deep in one area; especially if your home is either cluttery and full of books, or just about empty (an Aspie way of living that helps you keep it neat).

The way many see it, God has made (out of very many) one type of person who is both thwarted and suffers, and is driven back upon him/herself, into contemplation and introspection...and who is simultaneously brilliant and with great potential. Take a person with potential and let that person be outside the loop socially, and it just provides a lot of time for him to develop in amazing ways; IF he has even minimal support. I say, if your kid is an Aspie, let him explore music and art (a few painting/drawing lessons, no kits!) and math, give him a computer; isolate a natural interest in something, and encourage it. Parents who revile the child and push him away, without encouraging in some positive path, can create a lifetime of substance abuse, perhaps, or worse. I don't know what proportion of the people were AS kids who wound up on the street because their parents didn't know how to "handle" them, and they fell into bad company.

Still reading, intrepid fisheater? Thanks, I'm almost done :)

That said, just 2 more things remain. I'd like to apologize to DeiMaterAlma, about the avatar attack. I seem to have to make a mistake in order to learn from it. (No, that's not true; there are many I isolated ahead of time and kept clear of). And, I am new to online... Anyway, NOW I realize that I could have sent a private message. And since I was publicly ugly, I'd like to publicly apologize: mea maxima culpa! I am so sorry. I didn't MEAN to be obnoxious, who would? I have a small cadre of permanent friends, of the lifelong and devoted sort, but I'm not socially adept enough to be "popular", here or anywhere. And, I'm not studyin' it. Anyway, I regret it deeply when I hurt someone, and absolutely never would do it on purpose. I'm hoping DeiMaterAlma and all of you 'eaters will forgive me, for that and the Lord knows what else. For foisting my opinions on you. All of it.

Last, and best: people with AS, ADHD, Allergies, and Asthma, all suffer from the same root causes and all can be helped!!! Many become"normal" (but keep their brilliance and abilities; they are enhanced by the improved mental, social, and physical function. Read "Healing the New Childhood Epidemics", by Kenneth Bock, MD and Cameron Stauth. It is new; and groundbreaking, proven help. As an act of charity, some might wish to buy it, and after reading, offer it to friends. Or to their family doctor (who might be an Aspie!) Another act of charity some might contemplate is to make a donation of any size to LaRoza. Maybe he'll let me put his address here. Then again, maybe I'm stepping on toes again, big time. But the guy really is so poor that I was shocked when he said he'd pay someone for a ride to TLM.


bluecarmel Wrote:That said, just 2 more things remain. I'd like to apologize to DeiMaterAlma. I didn't like her Avatar. I am new to online, and I seem to have to make a mistake in order to learn from it.

I don't like her avatar also. I blocked it (I use Opera, very easy block things). Don't feel bad though, everyone with an animated gif is blocked except Quis because I love his.


bluecarmel Wrote:Another act of charity some might contemplate is to make a donation of any size to LaRoza. Maybe he'll let me put his address here. Then again, maybe I'm stepping on toes again, big time.
Thanks. My address is on my site (under Contact Me). As much as I try to emulate Christ and the Saints, I do not protest when given money :)

bluecarmel Wrote:But the guy really is so poor that I was shocked when he said he'd pay someone for a ride to TLM.

I must confess, I do know that anyone willing to give me a ride would probably not want money. I may not NT, but I'm devious :)
LaRoza Wrote:Don't feel bad though, everyone with an animated gif is blocked except Quis because I love his.
Yeah, that's the only animated one I generally ever use.  Somehow the extra bandwidth seems worth it for that one.  Whoever created it is a genius.

P.S. anyone who wants to can steal it for future use - on another forum ;)

Just right click and save it to your computer.
All right, I got curious and started reading a few things on the web about Aspergers. Maybe it's because the "symptoms" that are listed are so general, but it sounded to me as though it's just a particular personality type being described. Didn't sound like a disease. What am I missing?
Satori Wrote:All right, I got curious and started reading a few things on the web about Aspergers. Maybe it's because the "symptoms" that are listed are so general, but it sounded to me as though it's just a particular personality type being described. Didn't sound like a disease. What am I missing?

You are right. There is no characterist of Aspergers which is not found in every person to some degree.

Think of personalities as being levels of attributes (if you play video games, this makes more sense). Some people have certain characteristics more strongly, say, like perfectionists. Some people aren't that empathetic. Some people strong interests/collections. And so on. These are not considered to be Aspergers, however, when a certain number of such characteristics are found at once, it is.

The reason why it is a "problem":

Criteria A: There has to be an actual impairment in social interaction that is a problem. Being "different" in some areas doesn't qualify. Two of the listed criteria have to be present, most have all to some degree in my experience.

Criteria B: These deal with behavior, and a person with a personality with many characteristics of AS who doesn't have these behaviors is not AS, as you noted, it would be very broad otherwise.

Criteria C: Possibly the most important. For it to be a problem it has to be a problem. As you can probably see from some posts, children with AS, teenagers (especially) with AS, and families with members with AS often have the most problems, especially with school and family. Now that it is something that is more known, people are more likely to be noticed for it. It wasn't always like that (which results in a lot of adults now finding out they had it. I say "had" because it is probably no longer a problem and thus pointless to "diagnose")

Criteria D: This is a restriction on AS. AS is often considered to be on a spectrum of conditions. (My favourite term is "PDD-NOS", and I often use "Not otherwise specified" in real life because of it)

The rest of the criteria are making sure other personalities/problems are not caught in the diagnosis. It would be possible for someone to have these characteristics but have them for other reasons and often many other problems.

Like all people, we can act and learn. I do not stand out because of my personality and am (on the surface) quite social.

DSM Wrote:A. Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

1.marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction
2. failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
3. a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
4. lack of social or emotional reciprocity

B. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:

1. encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
2. apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
3. stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
4. persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning

D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language (e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)

E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood

F. Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia
You are right, if you look at a list of AS characteristics you can see some, many, most of them in some people. Once you are 'in' the autism world you will sometimes see the term 'Aspie-lite' referring to people (often family members of those officially diagnosed).

Yes, people can have all the traits that would officially make a diagnosis of AS possible yet not need or want to be diagnosed.

My son was diagnosed 'old'. He was 8 1/2. We always knew he was different and we were OK with that. Until he started self-injuring and threatening to kill himself. For him some of the things that were part of his personality became pathological. Thankfully, we were able to work past that and he is a great kid and functioning well, with challenges (but what child doesn't have some) and I believe will live independently as an adult.
mom Wrote:My son was diagnosed 'old'. He was 8 1/2. We always knew he was different and we were OK with that.
Wow. He was much younger than I was when it was addressed (I was 15-16)

Quote:Until he started self-injuring and threatening to kill himself.
That is probably the breaking point of when one is "diagnosed", when other disorders arise. For Satori, the description of AS can make one think "that doesn't sound like much of a problem", but people with AS are as human as any other. NT's are unusually judgemental and are very social (meaning, they need other people and are very observant of others in the group). People with AS do not have any problems except those caused by other sources. Anxiety, depression and inappropriate attitudes to the rest of society often develop with people with AS.



Quote: For him some of the things that were part of his personality became pathological. Thankfully, we were able to work past that and he is a great kid and functioning well, with challenges (but what child doesn't have some) and I believe will live independently as an adult.

He likely will be independent. This time should be used for learning (not sheltering) though. I've seen people with AS so clueless about things they would already know if they weren't deliberately isolated by their parents or whatever.

Also, movies are important I believe. Movies allow one to watch people interact (naturally, the movie must be somewhat realistic in this manner) without any discomfort. Watching the movie Rain Man is very good. It allows one to see a person with similiar but much a much more strong personality (for those reading, Rain Man depicts Autism, not Aspergers. It is a high functioning variety shown. I do not believe there is a spectrum (I think Aspergers is a personality and Autism to be a disorder) but outward signs are on a spectrum.)
Hi all. I've been following this thread and have found it very interesting. I'd like to ask, since Aspergers is a 'personality type', what exactly causes it? Are people born with it or a predisposition to it, is it something they develop due to environment etc?
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