ggreg Wrote:...I'd choose the Israelis since they appear to be the more civilized of the two.
...No civilian is innocent.
...Perhaps in the grand scheme of things the children are better off in Limbo than growing up to worship a false God.
A murderer is still a murderer, no matter how "civilized" they are.
I never said that civilians were sinless, but they are innocent in terms of just war. What the issue here is this war and justice. Your collectivist ideas hold little weight in the question of the morality of this slaughter.
Saying that Muslim children are better off dead sounds frighteningly close to what is often said in support of abortion... I'm positive the Church disagrees with you on that one. Are Jewish children better off in Limbo because they might grow up to reject their savior? Or protestants because they will grow up in heresy? Does this free us of our duty to preach the gospel? If everyone raised in a false religion will remain in their error, I guess conversion is out of the question.
If someone would explain what they would like Israel to do, then please do it. Remember- Hamas' mandate is to not only eliminate Israel, but all Jewry. They and their fellow Muslims want to rid the planet of Judaism and Christianity (who drives Christians out of Bethlehem? Who threatens Christians? Who hides in churches and uses women and children as human shields?).
Israel has taken great pains to warn civilians- whom Hamas uses and hides behind- and not to injure them.
And where are the other Islamic and Arab states? If they are so concerned, why aren't they helping? Egypt is good at shooting at refugees and walling them out and but hasn't lifted a finger to help.
The problem isn't with Israel- it's with Hamas and Islam.
OKinyobe Wrote:If someone would explain what they would like Israel to do, then please do it. Remember- Hamas' mandate is to not only eliminate Israel, but all Jewry. They and their fellow Muslims want to rid the planet of Judaism and Christianity (who drives Christians out of Bethlehem? Who threatens Christians? Who hides in churches and uses women and children as human shields?).
Israel has taken great pains to warn civilians- whom Hamas uses and hides behind- and not to injure them.
And where are the other Islamic and Arab states? If they are so concerned, why aren't they helping? Egypt is good at shooting at refugees and walling them out and but hasn't lifted a finger to help.
The problem isn't with Israel- it's with Hamas and Islam.
Before I respond in the name of full disclosure...are you a member AIPAC, or do you subscribe to them, or are they paying you?
DeusVult Wrote:Does this free us of our duty to preach the gospel?
No, but it might compell us to preach it bloody well or suffer terrible consequences in this life as well as the next. To a large extent the failure of the western world has not been that we have not taken the Gospel to the rest of the world, but that we have given such bad example and made such a right cock-up of it that the majority of people who hear it reject it.
As my mother used to say, if you're not going to do it properly then don't do it at all.
OKinyobe Wrote:If someone would explain what they would like Israel to do, then please do it. Remember- Hamas' mandate is to not only eliminate Israel, but all Jewry. They and their fellow Muslims want to rid the planet of Judaism and Christianity (who drives Christians out of Bethlehem? Who threatens Christians? Who hides in churches and uses women and children as human shields?).
Israel has taken great pains to warn civilians- whom Hamas uses and hides behind- and not to injure them.
And where are the other Islamic and Arab states? If they are so concerned, why aren't they helping? Egypt is good at shooting at refugees and walling them out and but hasn't lifted a finger to help.
The problem isn't with Israel- it's with Hamas and Islam.
In a roundabout fashion, you're setting up the same false dilemma that Melkite, ggreg, and LaRoza have been proposing, which is that we either accept Hamas or accept the extermination/ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. These aren't the only choices at Israel's disposal. We who oppose the Israeli attack do not have to come up with a full plan for what Israel should do. We are simply saying that Israel's current course of action is immoral, and stopping it immediately would be better. To say that they have no choice but to wrecklessly bomb residential areas (there is no military infrastructure in Gaza) with a guarantee of death for countless civilians (many children included) is ludicrous and diabolical. This mentality does not represent a Christian heart.
The burden of proving that Israel's actions are justified lies upon the shoulders of you who support Israel, OKinyobe, because what they are doing is objectively evil, and you'll have to do some amazing moral theology gymnastics to prove otherwise.
OKinyobe Wrote:If someone would explain what they would like Israel to do, then please do it.
No offense, but your question is a request that one identify with the Zionists - who ethnicall cleanse, oppress, starve, and brutally occupy the Palestinians, rather than with their victims.
Why not reverse the question and ask what would you do if you were a Palestinian?
OKinyobe Wrote: Remember- Hamas' mandate is to not only eliminate Israel, but all Jewry. They and their fellow Muslims want to rid the planet of Judaism and Christianity (who drives Christians out of Bethlehem? Who threatens Christians? Who hides in churches and uses women and children as human shields?).
Israel has taken great pains to warn civilians- whom Hamas uses and hides behind- and not to injure them.
And where are the other Islamic and Arab states? If they are so concerned, why aren't they helping? Egypt is good at shooting at refugees and walling them out and but hasn't lifted a finger to help.
The problem isn't with Israel- it's with Hamas and Islam.
None of this is true, other than your criticism of the government of Egypt, which ouor own (American) government supports, and has done so, ever since the Camp David accords, wherein we essentially bought them off of supporting their Palestinian brethren.
If you wish me to show that your statements are untrue and/or absurd characterizations, I shall, but it would require a little time and/or space.