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Bonifacio Wrote:What about the words of Our Lady at Fatima, Caths?

They seem pretty explicit to me.

Our Lady of Fatima is merely repeating what Our Lord said in the Gospels.

Many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them...Enter the narrow gate, etc.

- Lisa
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:Our Lady of Fatima is merely repeating what Our Lord said in the Gospels.

Many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them...Enter the narrow gate, etc.

Precisely. Thus, there are people who actually go to Hell.
Bonifacio Wrote:
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:Our Lady of Fatima is merely repeating what Our Lord said in the Gospels.

Many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them...Enter the narrow gate, etc.

Precisely. Thus, there are people who actually go to Hell.

We're not saying there aren't people in hell. We're wondering if "the Church" (ie pope, council, etc) has ever said an individual by name (like Judas, Hitler, etc) was in hell.. On the flip side, a pope does claim certain individuals are in heaven when he canonizes saints.
 
- Lisa
There is a difference between "the rules" and a particular judgment.

We know that people who die in a state of unrepentant and unforgiven mortal sin go to hell.  That is "the rule".

We don't know, for a fact, who dies that way because it goes to the internal forum.  Say, for example, there is someone who is a notorious thief.  We don't know if they stole as an act of will to the point it was mortal sin.  They may suffer from kleptomania or some illness which would mitigate it.

The beliefs of Fr. Feeny aside for this next statement, we don't know who truly has "invincible ignorance" to the point where following the Natural Law is enough to be allowed into heaven.

What people do and express on the outside is not necessarily what goes on inside, and when it comes to salvation and damnation what goes on inside is what actually matters.

In the case of John Wyclif, looking at what was posted, the Church does not say he went to hell.  It says he died in heresy.  The Church does not presume to know how Christ judged him.  It could be the guy had mental illness.  What the Church does say is: "in accordance with canonical and lawful sanctions."  The Church can sentence him based on the external forum.  That means refuse him a Catholic funeral and burial.  What the Church did not do here is condemn him to hell.  Why?  Because the Church cannot do that.

If we are talking about "the rules" it is fine to say heretics go to hell because that is what the Church teaches.  If we are talking about actual judgment, we have no authority to say anything because judgment belongs to Christ.

Thinking of it in secular terms:

Speeding is illegal and the fine is $500.  We know by the rules that speeders are fined $500.  We see someone speeding.  Can we pull him over and ask him for $500?  No, we cannot.  We have no authority to render a particular judgment.  We also have not given him a trial - maybe he's taking someone to the hospital, maybe he is not aware of the speed limit (which doesn't help in a secular court but it helps in the arena of damnation), etc.

Scripture and Judas, etc., are divine revelation, so that is different.  That is not the Church rendering judgment or defining God's judgment.  That is a record of God's judgment.  It is a known fact rather than a discernment. 

And the Catholic hope should be that all get to heaven even though we know by Scripture and Christ's own words that it will not be so.  We should not anticipate Christ's judgment of people, but hope for His mercy upon others. 

There is a difference between hoping for His mercy and presuming upon His mercy.  The various priests who say "John is in heaven now" are presuming upon His mercy which is sinful.  Praying for the soul of someone, no matter how sinful, is hoping for His mercy.

Likewise, we should not presume upon a lack of mercy.  God is infinitely merciful, and He will surely given anyone the greatest possible chance for salvation.  Sometimes that chance is the eye of a needle and we are the camel, but that chance is still there.  If He would give His only Son to die for us, He would do anything within the bounds of justice to save us, and, if we look at Christ for an example, He would go beyond the bounds of justice because surely it is not just that Christ died on the cross for our miserable and worthless souls.

It's not clear to me why, as Catholics, we would even want to entertain the question of who goes to hell.  We should rejoice in God's justice that the good will be rewarded and the bad punished, for sure, and trust in Him and accept His decisions as to who goes where unquestioningly.  However, we should not delight in the loss of even one soul.  I'm sure God doesn't.  That is a child of His that is being cast out.  No parent likes to lose a child, no matter how bad the child is.

Who can be saved?

25 And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?  26 And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible.

Anyone can be saved, no matter how bad we are.  God will give us every possible chance to be saved, of that I am sure.  And when it comes to individuals, no matter how bad they are, we don't know what chances Christ offers them, especially at the very moment of death.

What seems impossible to us, an apparently unrepentant sinner being saved, is possible with God by His own means in accordance with His Justice and Mercy.  With God all things are possible.
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
Bonifacio Wrote:
StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:Our Lady of Fatima is merely repeating what Our Lord said in the Gospels.

Many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them...Enter the narrow gate, etc.

Precisely. Thus, there are people who actually go to Hell.

We're not saying there aren't people in hell. We're wondering if "the Church" (ie pope, council, etc) has ever said an individual by name (like Judas, Hitler, etc) was in hell.. On the flip side, a pope does claim certain individuals are in heaven when he canonizes saints.
 
- Lisa

If I were to guess why the Church is allowed, by God, to canonize saints but not "canonize" the damned it would be this:  the Saints are a mechanism that goes to our salvation.  They can intercede for us, and they set examples for us.

Telling us who is damned really doesn't help us.  We don't need "negative examples" to be saved, and the damned cannot intercede for us.  Certainly, it is possible to have a private revelation in the form of a spectre or something to warn us off our path to damnation, but that is different than an example.

Christ came to us to save us, but also to be an example.  God did not send the devil to us to be a "counter-example".  The extension of the metaphor to the canonization of saints and the lack of commentary on the damned seems to extend nicely.  But, this is obviously speculation on my part.
QuisUtDeus Wrote:Christ came to us to save us, but also to be an example.  God did not send the devil to us to be a "counter-example".  The extension of the metaphor to the canonization of saints and the lack of commentary on the damned seems to extend nicely.  But, this is obviously speculation on my part.

My speculations are in tune with yours.
We don't have a Butler's Lives of the Damned. Thank goodness.
- Lisa


7HolyCats Wrote:
Quote:Because the people did not stand for anything else (like the "king", the "sower", and the "son" often used in parables) and because it used no analogy.

They stand for the gravely uncharitable man in general vs the suffering he is supposed to alleviate.

New Advent says:
Quote:Christ