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Full Version: Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell?
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Tele,

What do I care if we don't really know if any souls are in Hell and even if they are there they can be pulled out by God? If I can believe this and be a Catholic in good standing, can't I just tell Bishop Fellay to, in effect, shove off and stop being such a downer?

This is amazing to me that we really cannot say with any authority that there really is a Hell for human souls? According Cats we really cannot say for sure. JPII said the same thing. This blows  my mind. And if I can't definitively tell my lib friend there are souls in Hell, what else can't I tell him? What else is up for debate?

But yet my lib friend can tell me I'm not allowed to say girl altar boys are sinful, evil, or wrong (even though a previous Pope condemned the practice as evil) because I'd be sinning against Trent. And the previous Pope doesn't help me out because it was just "his opinion" on a "disciplinary matter" that is "subject to change".

So there you go. We are bound by the Church to believe girl altar boys are not evil or sinful in any way and if we do so we are anathema. However we are free to believe there are no souls in Hell and that Hell is not necessarily eternal.

Truly, what  the Hell is the point? (no pun intended)

Cats, you are just a Trad because you think the Mass is prettier and because Tradition is true? 2 + 2 =4 is true. Vatican II interpreted in the light of Tradition is true. You could be a Novus Ordite and appreciate the beauty of TLM and be attracted to the "truth" of the faith. Truly, what is the point? Is it just personal preference?

What about suicides?  I could be all wrong on this, but I thought they were denied Catholic funeral and burial on consecrated ground because the Church judged them to have died in a state of mortal sin and therefore damned.  (Which never made total sense to me, because many forms of suicide are not instant and leave time for a perfect act of contrition.)  Was I taught something wrong (or anything right) there?

Also, what about the excommunicated?  I watched Becket the other day, and the scene where Becket excommunicates the king's friend made me go, "Whoa."  No ambiguity there; as I recall, he pretty specifically outlined that guy's future.  But that's a movie; I don't know how accurate the language was.  (It did make me realize that Pope Benedict's lifting of the SSPX excommunications was an act of mercy on a spiritual level that the people carping about it aren't even aware of.)

Mhoram Wrote:What about suicides?  I could be all wrong on this, but I thought they were denied Catholic funeral and burial on consecrated ground because the Church judged them to have died in a state of mortal sin and therefore damned.  (Which never made total sense to me, because many forms of suicide are not instant and leave time for a perfect act of contrition.)  Was I taught something wrong (or anything right) there?
This stance assumed that a person could not repent or amend in the moment before death. Since greater understanding of death was reached and the process of dying, the Church amended its stance because there is no way to tell what happened for that person.

So now a person who commits suicide did something very dangerous and wrong, but we cannot say what happened to them and we should pray for them as much as we can. This does not change the teaching that suicide (by itself) is a mortal sin and that those who die in mortal sins are not saved, but it acknowledges we cannot know if a person died in a mortal sin.

Quote:Also, what about the excommunicated?  I watched Becket the other day, and the scene where Becket excommunicates the king's friend made me go, "Whoa."  No ambiguity there; as I recall, he pretty specifically outlined that guy's future.  But that's a movie; I don't know how accurate the language was.  (It did make me realize that Pope Benedict's lifting of the SSPX excommunications was an act of mercy on a spiritual level that the people carping about it aren't even aware of.)

I'm not sure. I'm sure it is in canon law though. I'll go look it up.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4C.HTM
LaRoza's explanation about uncertainty about what could have happened in the moments before death is good.

As for excommunication, it doesnt damn anyone who isnt already:
Quote:Consequently, a person unjustly