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Full Version: Does the Church Say Anyone Is In Hell?
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(02-16-2009, 10:50 AM)Mhoram Wrote: [ -> ]Also, what about the excommunicated?  I watched Becket the other day, and the scene where Becket excommunicates the king's friend made me go, "Whoa."  No ambiguity there; as I recall, he pretty specifically outlined that guy's future.  But that's a movie; I don't know how accurate the language was.  (It did make me realize that Pope Benedict's lifting of the SSPX excommunications was an act of mercy on a spiritual level that the people carping about it aren't even aware of.)

I just thought it would help to post the video of the famous scene (). I think the church needs many more bishops like St.Thomas Becket.

In Revelation 3, it says that a person whose works are not found perfect before God will be blotted out of the Book of Life.

Judas was named here who betrayed Jesus. Much has been said and written about him.
It was of course common in the Church to believe Judas is in hell.
This certainty was backed by Mt 26,24, where Jesus said:

“The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."

We however are not in the state to judge who’s in heaven and who not; but still it’s surely human to imagine this or that wrongdoer is.
(06-07-2009, 05:44 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]Has anyone brought up the Collect from the Holy Thursday evening Mass which also is found in the Liturgy of Good Friday?

"O God, from Whom Judas received the punishment of his guilt, and the thief the reward of his confession: grant unto us the full fruit of Thy clemency; that even as in His Passion or Lord Jesus Christ gave to each retribution according to his merits, so having been cleared away our former guilt, He may bewtow on us the grace of His Resurrextion: Who with Thee liveth and reigneth..."

The prayer seems to be contrasting the reward of St. Dismas, which was certainly heaven, and the punishment of Judas, thus implying that Judas was sentenced to the hell of the damned.

Obviously this prayer is not an infallible declaration by the Magisterium that Judas was condemned to hell. However, we must remember that the Church has prayed this prayer for centuries and that this prayer was found in a number of editions of the Missale Romanum, each of which were approved by the Roman Pontiff.
The Bible says Judas is in hell.
(06-07-2009, 08:43 AM)didishroom Wrote: [ -> ]The Bible says Judas is in hell.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born.

This could be true supposing very long and harsh Purgatory time.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled.

The word perdition (apoleia) is used also in

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.

so either we believe that the majority goes to the hell, or either for Judas there is some hope.

We shall leave the judgment to God.
(06-07-2009, 08:43 AM)didishroom Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-07-2009, 05:44 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]Has anyone brought up the Collect from the Holy Thursday evening Mass which also is found in the Liturgy of Good Friday?

"O God, from Whom Judas received the punishment of his guilt, and the thief the reward of his confession: grant unto us the full fruit of Thy clemency; that even as in His Passion or Lord Jesus Christ gave to each retribution according to his merits, so having been cleared away our former guilt, He may bewtow on us the grace of His Resurrextion: Who with Thee liveth and reigneth..."

The prayer seems to be contrasting the reward of St. Dismas, which was certainly heaven, and the punishment of Judas, thus implying that Judas was sentenced to the hell of the damned.

Obviously this prayer is not an infallible declaration by the Magisterium that Judas was condemned to hell. However, we must remember that the Church has prayed this prayer for centuries and that this prayer was found in a number of editions of the Missale Romanum, each of which were approved by the Roman Pontiff.
The Bible says Judas is in hell.

I would say that "It were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matt 26:24) implies that Judas is among the the damned.
(06-07-2009, 09:42 AM)glgas Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-07-2009, 08:43 AM)didishroom Wrote: [ -> ]The Bible says Judas is in hell.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born.

This could be true supposing very long and harsh Purgatory time.
No, purgatory isn't eternal. Temporal punishment does not mean that life isn't worth living.

Quote:so either we believe that the majority goes to the hell, or either for Judas there is some hope.

We shall leave the judgment to God.
When God's judgement is revealed, as in the cases of the saints or the rare occasions other states are revealed (such as those who are known to be in purgatory), it is alright to acknowledge it. According to scripture, Judas is not in heaven and will never will be.
(02-15-2009, 06:13 PM)McNider Wrote: [ -> ]I'm glad this came up because I've always wondered about this bit from the Council of Constance:

Quote:
This holy synod, therefore, at the instance of the procurator-fiscal and since a decree was issued to the effect that sentence should be heard on this day, declares, defines and decrees that the said John Wyclif was a notorious and obstinate heretic who died in heresy, and it anathematises him and condemns his memory. It decrees and orders that his body and bones are to be exhumed, if they can be identified among the corpses of the faithful, and to be scattered far from a burial place of the church, in accordance with canonical and lawful sanctions.

I know there was some wackiness at Constance, so I'm not sure if this is considered legit or not.

For what it's worth, I think that Judas's fate is divinely revealed.

That quote is not part of the Ecumenical Council of Constance, but is part of the psudeo-synod held in that city.
Well, I in the forum Catholic.org mentioned, that people like Hitler, Stalin, Milosevic, Idi Amin or Child molesters surely are in hell. I was almost lynched and the thread was closed; plus I got a lot of angry mails. And what me surprised most, they answered “Hitler (and all wrongoers as the mentioned) might have regretted in his or their last minute and so be in heaven now” (Saint Hitler >:( ) So I beware in future to say such thing, not to tempt people for saying similar nonsense ;)

Still, we all know, that even amidst our own Cath. Church a row of priests deny hell - which means they do not believe in Jesus' word. We also hear by Catholic friends the ridiculous word “God can not else but love”
This I even think is clear blasphemy calling for the wrath of God. To say God “can not….” (whatever) makes humans think they actually know what God can and what not.
Arch-Angel Gabriel said in Lk 1,37: “…with God nothing will be impossible” which is often said in the bible and referred to among others also in Gen 18,14; Job 42,2; Mt 19,26; Mk 10,27; Lk 18,27
This of course comprised everything into all directions and thoughts to which our mind can’t follow.

With Judas of Iskarioth, it’s a different thing, as Jesus said over him; it would have been better to him not having been born; which indicates hell. – But even then, let’s keep in mind: 1rst – we are not allowed to judge – 2nd - with God nothing will be impossible.

50 years ago I often thought Judas must be in heaven, for he betrayed our Lord for the simple reason, that Jesus finally shows the world He is God, for Judas might have thought, “Jesus won’t let them get hold of him” and does as Jesus again later mentioned in Mt 26,53: "Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and He will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?"
If Judas thought so, he must have been the one and only who recognized God in Jesus…
So, I for my part, even today beware of judging about Judas; adding another reason: It doen't make any difference to my faith in God nor my soul, if Judas is in hell or not, even more so, as these things had to happen for our salvation. (Very much different to the tirst mentioned).

But Jesus Himself often not only said, that hell is fact – and beware of hell. If none of us would be send to hell, Jesus wouldn’t have warned us, for Jesus poke fact – not mere threats. Hell is so disgusting, that even demons asked Jesus in Lk 8,31 not to be send back there.
When Judas Iscarite betrayed Jesus,it seemed to me for some strange reason when Jesus asked him "you know what to do, so go and do it" Did they talk first about this or was it satan he was talking to inside of Judas body? Because after it was all said and done it seems to me Judas did repent, he threw the money back in the court yard and then filled with so much grief and sorrow he (and we were not there) hung himself. But talk was he had some help. it does make you think, I feel if he was so remorseful and filled with sorrow as to not want to live anymore, may be he wil be with Christ when he returns some day.  LOL Nancy
well, the Judas-Story is a very very sad one, and we might be looked at it from many different angles.
It's clear that it must happen and that it was predicted.
It's clear, that Jesus said, he'd better not have been born.
I's also clear, that we are not to judge.
There are so many "might be's"
Might be Judas lived before I once heared, and he was send back to do the dirty job.
Who knows...
And who doesn't know, that every one of us betrayed Jesus before too
simply by not speaking out for Jesus Christ....

So, let's be very quiet about it.
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