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StevusMagnus Wrote:If it weren't for the Williamson affair, the SSPX would most likely have gotten a strucure by 2 Feb. and been in the middle of doctrinal talks right now before the libs could have organized this nonsense. Now the Vatican is going to be forced to take a hardline stand on VCII where they might not have before.
They would have been framed some other way. You know it!
anthony Wrote:
StevusMagnus Wrote:If it weren't for the Williamson affair, the SSPX would most likely have gotten a strucure by 2 Feb. and been in the middle of doctrinal talks right now before the libs could have organized this nonsense. Now the Vatican is going to be forced to take a hardline stand on VCII where they might not have before.
They would have been framed some other way. You know it!


Timing is everything. Without the anti-semite hysteria, things would have moved so fast they wouldn't have had time to organize effectively, plus their cries about VCII would not have been as strong, since nobody would have cared. Now all of Europe cares and Jews care intently on making sure the Society accepts VCII (in it's liberal interpretation).
Quote:
If it weren't for the Williamson affair, the SSPX would most likely have gotten a strucure by 2 Feb. and been in the middle of doctrinal talks right now before the libs could have organized this nonsense. Now the Vatican is going to be forced to take a hardline stand on VCII where they might not have before.
Not that they are justifed in their attacks, but you have no one to blame but Williamson. I saw the interview. He even admitted he could be arrested for what he was saying right there. Why would you risk abondoing your flock over such a superfluous thing? Was being 'right' that important to him?  

petition-vaticanum Wrote:We are very concerned that this act of rehabilitation heralds a turn-around on important documents of Vatican II, for example, the decree on ecumenism “Unitatis Redintegratio”, the declaration on non-Christian religions “Nostra Aetate”, the declaration on religious liberty “Dignitatis Humanae” and the Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, “Gaudium et Spes”. Such an act will have a disastrous effect on the credibility of the Roman-Catholic Church.  For Catholics who love their Church, the price is too high!

Yeah, the credibility of the false Roman Catholic church will be harmed.  The "spirit" of V-II has to be kept on at all costs or as they are saying, we will be the laughing stock of the world when  the Church finally admits she was wrong all along.  This is true.  So much already has been done in the name of the Council that the true ethos of the Church is been completely set aside and a new character and moral element has taken its place.  The conciliarists are screaming "Never again!  We ain't going back to the old."  That's the big worry now that the SSPX is in to reform the Conciliar church.

Quote:The Pope hopes this act will help unify the Church.  However we think it is particularly outrageous that the Vatican’s renewed overtures to a schismatic traditionalist movement have been undertaken without the imposition of any conditions whatsoever. In June 2008, on the occasion of the 20th anniversary of Levebvre’s excommunication, the SSPX rejected the invitation of the Holy See towards theological reconciliation. Likewise, the fraternity rejected the invitation to sign a five-topic declaration containing conditions for its re-integration in the Roman Church.

These people haven't got it right.  The removal of the penalties of excommunication requires two essential conditions:   the sincere desire of the excommunicated to return to the bosom of the Church and be in communion with the pope and her members; and, the charitable and benevolent act to lift such excommunication which is reserved to the pope alone.    The acceptance of certain conditions for re-integration has nothing to do with the lifting of the excommunications.

Quote:A return to full communion with the Catholic Church can only be made possible if the documents and teachings of the Second Vatican Council are fully accepted without any reservations, as requested by the motu proprio “Summorum Pontificum” on the topic of the Tridentine rite. It is also imperative that the papal ministries of Blessed Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul I, Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI are recognised and accepted.
  

The sincerity of these people is unbelievable.   Did Summorum Pontificum demanded that the conditions for the TLM to be implemented depended on unconditional acceptance of the Council teaching and documents?   The Latin Mass has nothing to do with what the Council teaches or proposes to teach.  This is why the Pope set it aside as an "extraordinary" form, set apart, independent (to add, inviolate) from the "ordinary" form.  The pope is intending to maintain a sense of equilibrium and trying not to upset the apple cart as yet, but I think he has set the wheels of reform for his successor or future pope sometime later.

Papal "ministries":   this sounds and is protestant but the conciliar church has already adapted to this form of parish government:   there are "ministries" of every conceivable kind in existence in the local church.   Youth ministry, choir ministry, etc.., etc.   Somebody creates a group to do something and automatically it becomes a "ministry."  







didishroom Wrote:
Quote:
If it weren't for the Williamson affair, the SSPX would most likely have gotten a strucure by 2 Feb. and been in the middle of doctrinal talks right now before the libs could have organized this nonsense. Now the Vatican is going to be forced to take a hardline stand on VCII where they might not have before.
Not that they are justifed in their attacks, but you have no one to blame but Williamson. I saw the interview. He even admitted he could be arrested for what he was saying right there. Why would you risk abondoing your flock over such a superfluous thing? Was being 'right' that important to him?  


I agree he was imprudent. Sincere but imprudent. And the Society is paying for it.
StevusMagnus Wrote:Timing is everything. Without the anti-semite hysteria, things would have moved so fast they wouldn't have had time to organize effectively, plus their cries about VCII would not have been as strong, since nobody would have cared. Now all of Europe cares and Jews care intently on making sure the Society accepts VCII (in it's liberal interpretation).
VCII implementation was a mysterious and evil plot. It is better expose the conflicts with genuine teaching than just ignore them. If the Vatican is truly reprobate on VCII-inspired heresy, the SSPX is much better off keeping its distance without a juridical structure.
Just look at the (rather small) list of people who signed the petition. Looks like the small-left circles of German pseudo-catholicism is being mobilised. I like this one, too:

Ms. Marybeth McBryan 
Roman Catholic Womenpriests
United States of America, 63118 St. Louis

If the SSPX must recognize Vatican II, I demand that the modernists recognize Nicaea to Vatican I!
Archangelum Wrote:Just look at the (rather small) list of people who signed the petition. Looks like the small-left circles of German pseudo-catholicism is being mobilised. I like this one, too:

Ms. Marybeth McBryan 
Roman Catholic Womenpriests
United States of America, 63118 St. Louis
There are six pages of signatures so far. Here is the first page:

Dr. Irmgard Ackermann, München

Sr. Dr. Dr. h.c. Lea Ackermann, Boppard, Gründerin von Solwodi

Prof. Dr. Michael Albus, Heidesheim, Honorarprofessur „Religionsdidaktik der Medien

Irmgard Alkemeier, Münster

Hans-Peter Alkemeier-Bohlsen, Münster

Jos Amrein-Murer, Immensee/Schweiz, Betlehem Mission

Br. Willi Anderau OFMCap, Schweiz, Regionaloberer der Kapuziner der Deutschschweiz

Gunnar Anger, Freiburg, Münsteraner Forum für Theologie und Kirche MFThK

Prof Dr. Urs Baumann, Rottenburg

Bernhard Beck, Mönchengladbach

Veronica Beck, Mönchengladbach

Winfried Belz, Wilhelmsfeld

Magdalena Bogner, Neumarkt

Prof. Dr. Karl Bopp, Benediktbeuren

Prof. Dr. Johannes Brosseder, Köln

Dr. Wilhelm Brunners, Mönchengladbach

Prof. Dr. Sabine Demel, Regensburg, Lehrstuhl für Kirchenrecht

Prof. Dr. Georg Denzler, Breitbrunn/Ammersee

Prof. Dr. Rudolf Donninger, A Schwechat, Vorsitzender des Finanz- und Immobilienausschusses der Pfarre Schwechat

Brigitte Durrer, Laax/Schweiz, Präsidentin Tagsatzung Bistum Basel

Prof. Dr. Peter Eicher, Paderborn/Schweiz

Christel Esser

Hubert Feichtlbauer, A Wien, Katholischer Journalist und Buchautor

Gudula Frieling, Dortmund

Prof. em. Dr. Walter Fürst, Bondorf

Bernd Hans Göhrig, Frankfurt am Main, Ökumenisches Netzwerk Initiative Kirche von unten (IKvu)

Sigrid Grabmeier, Deggendorf, Wir sind Kirche

Bertold Graf

Karl Graml, Lenting

Mag. Gotlind Hammerer, A Innsbruck, Plattform Wir sind Kirche und Pax Christi

Univ.Prof. Dr. Ignaz Hammerer, A Innsbruck

Prof. Dr. Hermann Häring, Tübingen

Prof. Dr. Dr. Gotthold Hasenhüttl, Saarbrücken

Prof. Dr. Hanspeter Heinz, Augsburg

Prof. Dr. Bernd Jochen Hilberath, Tübingen, Direktor Institut für Ökumenische Forschung, Kath.-Theol. Fakultät

Renate Holmes, Dachau, Oberstudienrätin

Hans Peter Hurka, Wien, Plattform Wir sind Kirche

Annelie Hürter, Ingolstadt

Walter Hürter, Ingolstadt

Prof. Dr. Josef Imbach, CH Aesch

Pfr. Dr. Toni Jansen, Aachen

Pfr. Hubertus Janssen, Limburg

Andrea Kaiser, Köln

Dr. Ferdinand Kerstiens, Marl

Dieter Kittlauß, Bendorf, Theologe

Hans Klemm, Rektor

Carl-Peter Klusmann, Dortmund, Pfr.i.R., Sprecher der AGP

P. Petr Kolar SJ, CZ - Praha

Prof. Dr. Fritz Köster, Boppard

Prof. Dr. Hans Küng, Tübingen

Annegret Laakmann, Haltern

Matthias Lattek, Münster

Christian Lauer, Eisenberg, 1. Vorsitzender Wir sind Kirche e.V.

Prof. em. Dr. Ernst Leuninger, Limburg

Pfarrer Dr. Hans-Georg Link, Köln, Präsident der deutschen Region der Internationalen Ökumenischen Gemeinschaft

Rudolf Löhken, Walldorf

Dr. Marcell Mártonffy, Budapest, Chefredakteur der Zeitschrift „Mérleg“

Florian Mayr, Wien, Fakultätsvertretung Katholische Theologie Universität Wien

Prof. Dr. Norbert Mette, Dortmund

Prof. Dr. Dietmar Mieth, Tübingen

Prof. Dr. theol. Herbert Mölle, Technische Universität Dortmund

Sr. Friederike Müller, Bamberg, Dipl. Theol

Dr. Werner Müller, Saarbrücken, Religionspädagogik/ Studienfachberater, Leiter der Kath. Akademie Trier, Abteilung Saarbrücken

Dr. Iris Müller, Stuttgart, RCWP - römisch-katholische Priesterinnen

Pfr. Dieter Nesselhauf, Karlsruhe

Prof. Dr. phil. Theodor Nolte, Tiefenbach, Universität Passau

Dr. Ida Raming, Stuttgart, RCWP - römisch-katholische Priesterinnen

P. Marian Reke OSB, Meschede, Abtei Königsmünster

Prof. Dr. Klemens Richter, Münster

Claus Schiffgen, Lützelbach, VkPF

Prof. Dr. Karl Schlemmer, Nürnberg

Prof. Dr. Norbert Scholl, Wilhelmsfeld

Prof. Dr. Heinz-Günther Schöttler, Regensburg

Prof. Dr. Anton Schrettle, A Lieboch, Professor an der Kirchlich Pädagogischen Hochschule der Diözese Graz-Seckau

Dr. Thomas Seiterich, Oberursel, Publik-Forum

Kurt Sohns, Offenbach, Pfarrer der Gemeinde St. Paul

Margret und Georg Strasser, Kempen

Prof. Dr. Paulo Suess, São Paulo/S.P.

P. Peter Suffel OP, CH Wil, priesterlicher Mitarbeiter

Prof’in Gunnel Vallquist, S Djursholm, Professorin, Schwedische Akademie

Dres. Susanne und Leopold Walla

Dr. Bernd Weber, Münster

Christian Weisner, Dachau, Wir sind Kirche

Prof. Dr. Josef Wohlmuth, Bonn

Prof'in Dr. Martha Zechmeister, Passau / El Salvador

Dr. Lioba und Dr. Martin Zodrow, Essen

Let the battle commence! I sense a liberal schism to happen soon.
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