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The lack of normal, pious behaviour before the altars of God is naturally shocking ever since the heretical and schismatic Vaticanum II but what how is your FSSP/FSSPX church doing in this regard? An old friend of mine, 78 years of age, recalls how the ostuarius "patrolled" the church during H. Mass and kept his umbrella ready when he saw young boys (the only trouble makers at that time) talking during Mass: he slapped them on the head with it. Another recounts how the "Suisse" performed the same duties. I surely don't need to list all the abuses, great and small, that take place during Novus Ordo because they are well known to each of you and almost understandable I might add - N.O. is boring as hell and I caught myself looking at either the ceiling or at my watch countless times. What bothers me in FSSPX-churches is the following:
  • Not all women wear their veil. It is an important command that men uncover their head whilst the women cover it. About 80% of the women cover their head at my FSSPX church, why not the rest? I think that there should be a person (either Suisse or ostuarius) to control if women wear their veil or else they cannot enter. Also this not new: a women at my local N.O. parish told me women could not enter otherwise, it was checked at the church doors.
  • Young women wear clothing that is totally inappropriate for H. Mass. This includes too colourful clothing and much too short skirts. Same as above, it should be checked at the entrance. Also some men wear jeans, something that is very objectable for obvious reasons. Same as above.
  • Young, married couples often bring their babies into church for H. Mass. I personally think this is not a good idea, the child will start screaming or crying at some point and this is highly annoying for everyone in church. An idea might be to introduce a role pattern: one parent stays home with the child while the other ones visits H. Mass. Next week vica versa and so on. It gets even worse when they roll their baby carriers with them to the Communion rail and leave it parked in the way of other parishoners.
  • Young children often run around at the back of the church, some cannot seem to concentrate or have no interest and are walking in and out. Confronting the parents or placing a guard at the entrance might also prevent this. When I was their age I sat quiet on my chair and followed Mass with all my attention. Why can't they?

Archangelum Wrote:
  • Not all women wear their veil. It is an important command that men uncover their head whilst the women cover it. About 80% of the women cover their head at my FSSPX church, why not the rest? I think that there should be a person (either Suisse or ostuarius) to control if women wear their veil or else they cannot enter. Also this not new: a women at my local N.O. parish told me women could not enter otherwise, it was checked at the church doors.
The current Code of Canon Law does not require women to cover their heads.  There is no basis for denying them entrance.

Quote:
  • Young women wear clothing that is totally inappropriate for H. Mass. This includes too colourful clothing and much too short skirts. Same as above, it should be checked at the entrance. Also some men wear jeans, something that is very objectable for obvious reasons. Same as above.
I wouldn't turn people away because of the quality of their clothing.  There's no need for that.  But anything immodest, definitely.

Quote:
  • Young, married couples often bring their babies into church for H. Mass. I personally think this is not a good idea, the child will start screaming or crying at some point and this is highly annoying for everyone in church. An idea might be to introduce a role pattern: one parent stays home with the child while the other ones visits H. Mass. Next week vica versa and so on. It gets even worse when they roll their baby carriers with them to the Communion rail and leave it parked in the way of other parishoners.
I don't think there is any need for this either, unless you have a really difficult baby.  When a baby starts to cry at Mass at my parish, the parents get up and take him out to an area where they cannot disturb anyone, but they can still see and hear Mass.  This seems like the best solution if possible.

Quote:
  • Young children often run around at the back of the church, some cannot seem to concentrate or have no interest and are walking in and out. Confronting the parents or placing a guard at the entrance might also prevent this. When I was their age I sat quiet on my chair and followed Mass with all my attention. Why can't they?
That definitely should not be allowed, but my parish does not have this problem.
Archangelum Wrote:heretical and schismatic Vaticanum II
 
There are great critiques to be made of the Council, but please explain where Vatican II was actually heretical and schismatic?
 
Quote:Not all women wear their veil. It is an important command that men uncover their head whilst the women cover it.
 
Canonically-speaking there are no longer requirements for men to uncover their heads, nor women to cover them. There is solid Scriptural support for doing so, not to mention a custom of Christians throughout time - and still in the other Rites of the Church. However, the actual law itself imposes no obligation.
 
Quote:About 80% of the women cover their head at my FSSPX church, why not the rest?
 
Maybe they're new. They'll come around. Let the priest worry about it.

Quote:This includes too colourful clothing
 
Not color, anything but color! We must remain in drab clothing to imitate the real traditional Catholics: the peasants in the Medieval times.

The Christian life is one of happiness and hope, can't people show that when they wear clothes? Lighten-up man.

Quote:Also some men wear jeans, something that is very objectable for obvious reasons.
 
The reason being?...

Quote:Young, married couples often bring their babies into church for H. Mass. I personally think this is not a good idea, the child will start screaming or crying at some point and this is highly annoying for everyone in church.
 
EWTN's Barbara McGuigan has a great line to this affect: Whenever you're ready to gripe about a baby bawling at Mass, thank God. That crying and screaming you hear has been snuffed out thousands of times today via abortion.


Quote:Young children often run around at the back of the church, some cannot seem to concentrate or have no interest and are walking in and out.
 
The poor kids have probably been cooped-up at mandatory consumer education camps the whole week (i.e.: schooling). Have some pity on them when they want to exercise their atrophying mussels.

Quote:or placing a guard at the entrance
 
This is about the third time you've recommended a guard to bounce people out of Mass, so it's about time to consider it.

1) Without qualifying the answer: during his ministry on earth, did Christ send people away or did he embrace them?

2) Could it be such thinking has lead to, after 2000 years of evangelizing efforts, a paltry 15/20% of the world nominally calling themselves Catholic?

This is really the subject of a much bigger thread, the presentation of the Christian in the larger society, but I am convinced that what comes to mind when a Catholic talks about Christianity and what comes to mind when an unregenerate soul talks about Christianity are two different things completely.

A while back I read a study that when asked what Christianity brings to mind, the majority of Americans said "people who hate sex," "control freaks," and "hypocrites." Some of this comes from the media, but I'd reckon most of this appraisal comes from the very real inarticulate way Catholics have presented themselves to the world. To the general pubic we Catholics who have the Message have officially become nothing more than a controlling vice squad.
 
We're Catholics, not Mohammedans. We don't need some kind of Mutaween to patrol out parishes.
 
One of the things I've liked about the practice of the Christianity, in my neck of the woods at least, is that people leave you alone. As well they should.
 
Some years back there happened to have been a homeless guy living out of my van (it wasn't me). He asked to come to Mass early one morning, and did. The kid did his best to prepare physically, but he really looked like hell. He hadn't shaved for a few days, he was in jeans, he didn't exactly smell like buttercups. Thankfully no one said a word. Boy, would they have rightly felt like jerks if they hassled the homeless fellow!

In the final conclusion I am not saying that Mass should not be a time of personal or corporate discipline, nor a time for immodesty, but - to take a page from the great GK Chesterton - if you want to see what's wrong with the world, look in the mirror. We have very little control over the souls of others. Do not worry what other people are doing around you. Keep your eyes on what's happening at the alter and live the life. After a long enough time of doing this, people will notice your way and follow you.

We don't need Catholic police, we need examples.

Cannot say it any better than "Credo" said it.

You sound overbearing and would likely drive away those new to Tradition. They are learning and we can attract those who are searching with charity and friendship, not drill-sergeant discipline. Lighten up. I also like a reverent atmosphere  but we need to remember that most of us were not raised in Tradition: We learned also.

As Credo said: Leave it to the priests. If they do not have problem with it, you should not either.
cgraye Wrote:The current Code of Canon Law does not require women to cover their heads.  There is no basis for denying them entrance.
You presume all Roman Catholics accept the CIC of 1983 (Code of Canon Law of 1983) and its drastic revisions also demanding that Roman Catholic clergy give sacraments to schismatics who hold our eucharistic faith, but not the rest of the Catholic religion.

I agree that there is no reason to deny women entrance. I think an admonition is enough. Our traditional chapel (in the Netherlands) also has the problems as described in the Belgian case of Archangelum (Flemish case?). Only few women cover their heads.

In our chapel in fact, the three youngest girls cover their heads, while even old-aged women do not. At least not always.

However, there is a greater good involved, if the common peace must be guarded and there is a danger of rebellion and thus dissolution of the chapel. Then, the Priest should - after an admonition - delegate this to the conscience of these female faithful.

Our (83 year old) normal Priest told me he does not think it is thát important. He told me: "I'd rather have them actively participating in chant and gestures, than passive with a nice head covering." As if women covering their heads are passive during Holy Mass. But our Priest is fine otherwise. I think he just fears the upstir.

Quote:I wouldn't turn people away because of the quality of their clothing.  There's no need for that.  But anything immodest, definitely.

I agree. During workdays, it should be allowed that men come and receive Holy Communion and attend Mass also in their work clothing, if otherwise they could not attend. One should not take scandal too easily either. Jeans - if not too tight and thus not intended to seduce women or men by sensory incentives - are not per se 'immodest' or 'evil'.

Quote:I don't think there is any need for this either, unless you have a really difficult baby.  When a baby starts to cry at Mass at my parish, the parents get up and take him out to an area where they cannot disturb anyone, but they can still see and hear Mass.  This seems like the best solution if possible.
This is the correct solution. Take them outside for a while, and take them back in. But above 4 years of age, children should be actively disciplined to be silent and kneel down. Even if this is hard for children, as their biological concentration time is too short still.

Quote:That definitely should not be allowed, but my parish does not have this problem.

Young children cannot be held personally responsible for incessant noisy behaviour or for some activities, but parents can.
"Credo" Wrote:There are great critiques to be made of the Council, but please explain where Vatican II was actually heretical and schismatic?

Vaticanum II was an invalid, fallible and wrong council. Like a wise cardinal said: it was a striking departure from Catholicism. A departure is for me another word for schismatic.

Quote:Canonically-speaking there are no longer requirements for men to uncover their heads, nor women to cover them. There is solid Scriptural support for doing so, not to mention a custom of Christians throughout time - and still in the other Rites of the Church. However, the actual law itself imposes no obligation.

And what is it that you abide to, the post-Vaticanum II dumping of all the Tradition or the Scripture? Posing the question is answering it.
 
Quote:Maybe they're new. They'll come around. Let the priest worry about it.

They're not new at all, they're even quite old. Ironically enough most if not all of the young women and girls cover their head. The others should, too. This should be brought up to them personally and discrete, like it was in the centuries before us.

Quote:Not color, anything but color! We must remain in drab clothing to imitate the real traditional Catholics: the peasants in the Medieval times.

If you look down on peasants then refrain from eating the bread and milk they harvested from you all these centuries long. I used the term colourful in an eufemistic way since I didn't want to say they dress like certain American pop stars whose name is better not mentioned here.

Quote:The Christian life is one of happiness and hope, can't people show that when they wear clothes? Lighten-up man.

"Happiness and hope"? Are you from the Novus Ordo-sect? You like liturgical dance too, yes?

Quote:Also some men wear jeans, something that is very objectable for obvious reasons.
 
Quote:The reason being?...

That it is not fitting. Just imagine how these same people dress up if they would meet their manager. Dressing up for God should even be better than that. Yet they don't do it, they come in their jeans and bright canary yellow vest.

Quote:EWTN's Barbara McGuigan has a great line to this affect: Whenever you're ready to gripe about a baby bawling at Mass, thank God. That crying and screaming you hear has been snuffed out thousands of times today via abortion.

That is not a very fitting let alone convincing argument. A child throwing a tantrum in the middle of H. Mass is not a thing that can be validated just because evil takes place on children somewhere else. The H. Mass is not a baby day care center nor a baby choir. Is it so much to ask to leave the baby at home if it is too young? I don't need to add that our wise and pious forefathers (you know, those filthy peasants that you dislike so much because they don't fit in your urban lifestyle) did not take their infants to H. Mass.

Quote:The poor kids have probably been cooped-up at mandatory consumer education camps the whole week (i.e.: schooling). Have some pity on them when they want to exercise their atrophying mussels.

The parc outside the church is even a far better place to do that. I went through those camps too, run by N.O. hippies, and I sat still at church.

Quote:This is about the third time you've recommended a guard to bounce people out of Mass, so it's about time to consider it.

That is not a new thing I am proposing. It is some of the customs that vanished after Vaticanum II. I'm simply saying it would be best for all included that it be reinstated.

Quote:1) Without qualifying the answer: during his ministry on earth, did Christ send people away or did he embrace them?

Yes, he kicked the merchants out of the temple with a whip. Likewise we cannot allow that even a single one of the sacred altars of our fatherlands be made unworthy because of actions or gestures that are inappropriate. I know of a church in Limburg/Belgium that actually reinstated a "bouncer" like you call it (in fact they re-appointed the "Suisse" again) to stop people from entering the church if there could be problems. And imagine: this is a N.O. parish ... ! Instead of making me look like the bad guy you best visit some parishes here in Europe. You'd not only return with a hangover but dump many of your naive ideas about "happiness" in the Church: it simply is not there anymore.

Quote:A while back I read a study that when asked what Christianity brings to mind, the majority of Americans said "people who hate sex," "control freaks," and "hypocrites." Some of this comes from the media, but I'd reckon most of this appraisal comes from the very real inarticulate way Catholics have presented themselves to the world

What's your deal with "the world"? You sound like one of those weird and fluffy texts from the second Vatican Council. It was the world that crucified Christ, villified and villifies the Church and massacred countless martyrs and faithful. We should not like "the world", that is not our goal and Christ warned us time and time again. The Holy Catholic Church is not a commercial firm that needs advertising nor is it some sort of fast food chain that should work in slogans ("happiness and hope for all!").

Quote:To the general pubic we Catholics who have the Message have officially become nothing more than a controlling vice squad.

Good, I say. It does not matter what the secularised masses think of us. It was the mindless and perfidious mass that cried "CRUCIFY HIM!".
 
Quote:We're Catholics, not Mohammedans. We don't need some kind of Mutaween to patrol out parishes.

Just look at the retorics of the turncoats. I remember it very well that it was you who encouraged Catholics to wear Mohammedan clothing to H. Mass. Not only were muslims a-ok back then in your way of thinking, but come to think of it, their garments are colourless as well. Needless to say the hypocritical followers of the apostasy don't think the mohammedans are "peasants from the middle ages", no. And now you use mohammedans in a totally different fashion, like all of their customs are to be avoided because, good grief, that is not "happiness and hope" is all about. I assume, reading this, you're gonna flip flop again so I'm gonna ask: what is wrong with mohammedans now?
 
Quote:One of the things I've liked about the practice of the Christianity, in my neck of the woods at least, is that people leave you alone. As well they should.

Leave you alone ... ? But what happened to "happiness and love" and all that "presenting us to the world"? The sound I'm hearing must be that of flip flopping.
 
Quote:Some years back there happened to have been a homeless guy living out of my van (it wasn't me). He asked to come to Mass early one morning, and did. The kid did his best to prepare physically, but he really looked like hell. He hadn't shaved for a few days, he was in jeans, he didn't exactly smell like buttercups. Thankfully no one said a word. Boy, would they have rightly felt like jerks if they hassled the homeless fellow!

That was hardly any of the points I raised nor does it have anything to do with the issues here. Just more emotional phoney retorics. 

Quote:We don't need Catholic police, we need examples.

Boy o boy. Come out of your home county more often, I especially recommend any old church in secularised Europe. The walls of the large churhes in the cities (were all those yuppies live, you know, not those ugly and drab farmers?) have become urinals and they are smeared with graffiti. During one H. Mass once a black guy stormed in, knocking things over and shouting inaudible screams at the faithful. Lucky some good family fathers threw him out.

I would like it that our churches become like the synagogues: fortified and with police surveillance. I'm actually afraid to enter some churches in Brussels because muslim youths control the neighbourhood and don't take kaffirs kindly. Your happy and hopeful N.O. priest (E.H. Fritz Bouvry) had his car smashed up once they found out he was a priest, too. No need for a Catholic police, you say? Humbug! The world hated us and will hate us more in the future because we have become few and weak: the masses will always strike when they see a weakness. And the H. Church of God is knocked over here in Europe, bleeding from many wounds. The hyena's are already drawing close but it seems the orchestra on the N.O.-Titantic keeps on playing whilst the ship is sinking.
Archangelum Wrote:
Quote:The Christian life is one of happiness and hope, can't people show that when they wear clothes? Lighten-up man.

"Happiness and hope"? Are you from the Novus Ordo-sect? You like liturgical dance too, yes?

You can't be serious. 
Archangelum Wrote:The lack of normal, pious behaviour before the altars of God is naturally shocking ever since the heretical and schismatic Vaticanum II but what how is your FSSP/FSSPX church doing in this regard? An old friend of mine, 78 years of age, recalls how the ostuarius "patrolled" the church during H. Mass and kept his umbrella ready when he saw young boys (the only trouble makers at that time) talking during Mass: he slapped them on the head with it. Another recounts how the "Suisse" performed the same duties. I surely don't need to list all the abuses, great and small, that take place during Novus Ordo because they are well known to each of you and almost understandable I might add - N.O. is boring as hell and I caught myself looking at either the ceiling or at my watch countless times. What bothers me in FSSPX-churches is the following:
  • Not all women wear their veil. It is an important command that men uncover their head whilst the women cover it. About 80% of the women cover their head at my FSSPX church, why not the rest? I think that there should be a person (either Suisse or ostuarius) to control if women wear their veil or else they cannot enter. Also this not new: a women at my local N.O. parish told me women could not enter otherwise, it was checked at the church doors.

As said, the CIC 1917 requires the head covering for women "especially whenever approaching the Holy Table" for women, but the newer CIC 1983 of John Paul II omits any mention of the veil or head covering.

I think the priest/prior/curate should advise and encourage the use of the veil in the sermon, and aptly explain it, without causing unnecessary hard feelings and unrest among the general congregation.

A guard is not the appropriate person.

A good initiative would be however, if he would 'propose' - at the church entrance - the veil for women not yet veiled or covered when entering. This was done in the past in the local parishes here. Often tourists etc. in the 1950s would forget their hats from home and then get a (not thát nice-looking) veil from the Suisse (the zouave, the guard, the 'Reverence in the House of God' as these men were called in the Netherlands and still are). Next time, they would not forget.

But we should not force women or physically bar them from entering the church.

Do not exaggerate.

Quote:
  • Young women wear clothing that is totally inappropriate for H. Mass. This includes too colourful clothing and much too short skirts. Same as above, it should be checked at the entrance. Also some men wear jeans, something that is very objectable for obvious reasons. Same as above.

Inappropriate? Colourful clothing is never inappropriate. Women are not required to wear the black of the religious orders. Colourful is nice. In Brussels in the Society of St. Pius X's large church of Saint Joseph at the Square Frère Orban, I frequently saw black women in colourful dresses - with head coverings. That is not wrong. It is culture.

In the Netherlands black was more usual in the past. But this is not required by the Church - it seems appropriate at Good Friday and at Requiems. But not normally.

Jeans are only wrong if too tight on these men. They are not very 'Sunday-like' normally, but not a grave sin.

Of course the Curate should point out in a sermon on clothing, that we must not wear too expensive clothing, but that we should try to dress how we would dress if we meet the King or the Queen or the President.

Nothing less is good enough for Our Eucharistic Lord Jesus in the tabernacle.

I would like to tell you, you should not be too easily scandalized at "too short" skirts. If they reach the knee, they are fine. The rest is your responsibility.

Our Lord accuses those who scandalize others, but also those who take scandal (are easily scandalized) themselves.

Quote:
  • Young, married couples often bring their babies into church for H. Mass. I personally think this is not a good idea, the child will start screaming or crying at some point and this is highly annoying for everyone in church. An idea might be to introduce a role pattern: one parent stays home with the child while the other ones visits H. Mass. Next week vica versa and so on. It gets even worse when they roll their baby carriers with them to the Communion rail and leave it parked in the way of other parishoners.

With very young babies, one should stay at home. Or one could attend the early read Mass (missa lecta) in the early Sunday morning, and the other the High Mass of the Sunday or holy day. 

I think you should be more tolerant towards parents with baby carriers though. Just be practical. Do not be too easily irritated about such details.

Personally, I may be a bit distracted by a crying baby, but I can generally divert my attention from it. I like the noise of young kids and the sight of parents. It makes clear that there is future for our Church and for Roman Catholic Tradition and anti-neomodernist resistance movements.

Do not be too harsh on parents. Already our Hedonist egoistic societies are hard towards them! We Catholics must be supportive! But also practical.

If they walk out with their crying baby, you should agree with me, that that is enough. And that it is also commendable to take children to church very early on - to teach them normal church regularity.

Quote:
  • Young children often run around at the back of the church, some cannot seem to concentrate or have no interest and are walking in and out. Confronting the parents or placing a guard at the entrance might also prevent this. When I was their age I sat quiet on my chair and followed Mass with all my attention. Why can't they?


This should be confronted by the parents, but you should also show some understanding. Sometimes kids are unable to be handled and very naughty.

I think you were not only an innocent baby or kid at that age. You think you were. But is that reality? Ask your parents.

Of course a Suisse or a guard could help parents 'catch' children. But children biologically are hard to entertain. Above 5 years of age, things should go better. Above the age of reason (7 yrs old), it should be gone. Until that, we should show some patience.

Or else you might want to attend Holy Mass in a elderly retirement home chapel instead. (No pun intended.) [Image: fish.gif]
I personally love to see babies at Mass. I love to hear spontaneous shouts of 'ba' and 'da da' during the Mass, If you pay attention they are sometimes trying to respond with the rest of the faithful and as for toddlers, boy do they pick up the order of the Mass quickly!

I don't think they should be kept away from the Blessed Sacrament at such a pivotal time in their development! WHAT A MISTAKE!!! My grandmother gave me Children's books on the saints, the Mass, the Rosary and Our Lady of Fatima (and a life-saver to keep me quiet) and there I was for the Mass. It was one of my most favourite times spent with family and childhood memory.


HMiS Wrote:I think the priest/prior/curate should advise and encourage the use of the veil in the sermon, and aptly explain it, without causing unnecessary hard feelings and unrest among the general congregation.


Yes, that is something I can agree with. But like Moses, one does feel the anger rising when returning from the top of mount Sinaï and seeing that turning your back even for a short while on the people makes them worship the golden calf. Like E.H. Van Isacker (SJ) writes in "Ontwijding": it took just half a generation to unlearn what all generations did before us. We are not better or holier than our ancestors and should not stop fulfilling our religious duties just because it is fashionable to do so. Women should be veiled when the H. Mass is being said.

Quote:A guard is not the appropriate person.

Well, that it how it used to be. And old lady told me this "We couldn't enter the church if we didn't have our head covered".

Quote:A good initiative would be however, if he would 'propose' - at the church entrance - the veil for women not yet veiled or covered when entering. This was done in the past in the local parishes here. Often tourists etc. in the 1950s would forget their hats from home and then get a (not thát nice-looking) veil from the Suisse (the zouave, the guard, the 'Reverence in the House of God' as these men were called in the Netherlands and still are). Next time, they would not forget.

Yes, a very perfect idea. Like I said it should be adressed in a way that is discrete to the person in question.

Quote:Inappropriate? Colourful clothing is never inappropriate.

The H. Mass is not a party or a some "night out" event. We can read everywhere in our old missals the prayers that our mother the H. Church advised during and after H. Communion as well as the actions: kneel, cover your face when receiving H. Communion and so on. Wearing too colourful clothing is not advisable. Likewise, as always, our ancestors did not do that and nor did the apostles dress up like clowns during their sunday gatherings. I remember one H. Mass where I had to stare, the whole Mass through, on the canary yellow vest of the lady in front of me (the N.O. altar was too low that it turned invisible if you were seated in the wrong place). Believe me, it annoyed the heck out of me because of many reasons.

Quote:Jeans are only wrong if too tight on these men. They are not very 'Sunday-like' normally, but not a grave sin.

Okay, but does it take so much effort to get "church clothes"? Buying one (1) pants to wearing H. Mass does not seem like such a big task or asking too much.

Quote:I would like to tell you, you should not be too easily scandalized at "too short" skirts. If they reach the knee, they are fine. The rest is your responsibility.

Well below the knee, I would say. And no decadent shoes either. Women should be seated in the right or left wing too, seperated from the men. I see many of the older couples in the FSSPX church do this. Very good. One needs to be free of distractions.

Quote:Our Lord accuses those who scandalize others, but also those who take scandal (are easily scandalized) themselves.

Christ was 'scandalised' as well when he saw what kind of people were sitting in the temple. He took out a "zweep met koorden". I am not scandalised but just annoyed that people are dumping the duties of our sacred religion for nothing.

Quote:With very young babies, one should stay at home. Or one could attend the early read Mass (missa lecta) in the early Sunday morning, and the other the High Mass of the Sunday or holy day.

Yes, that is exactly it. A 5 months old baby cannot attend H. Mass, not only because it has no idea yet what it is but it will start whining, screaming or crying because all the sitting makes it annoyed. Just in one case, a black lady that kept her child wrapped in the large mantle, the small baby kept quiet as a feather the whole Mass through. That was okay but mostly FSSPX Masses turn into a baby scream concert. Oddly enough the N.O. Masses turn into a coughing concert because of all the old people. Looks like we are at a crossroads in 2009 where the audience is very different depening on the church we visit.

Quote:I think you should be more tolerant towards parents with baby carriers though. Just be practical. Do not be too easily irritated about such details.

I just think even FSSPX is getting a bit too liberal on the practical side of Catholicism. I suppose each FSSPX chapel will be somewhat different but I sure do miss that good old strict Catholicism I heard my older family members talk about.

Quote:Personally, I may be a bit distracted by a crying baby, but I can generally divert my attention from it. I like the noise of young kids and the sight of parents. It makes clear that there is future for our Church and for Roman Catholic Tradition and anti-neomodernist resistance movements.

Okay, I fully agree with this. It is obvious who has a future: the N.O. Mass by the weird priest and the 75 year old parishoners and their coughs or the FSSPX Mass that is always and always full of babies, children and young adults. But I just wish our habits were those of the olden days. We have gotten a bit too relaxed on our behaviour inside church. We need to be strict, obedient and disciplined.

Quote:Do not be too harsh on parents. Already our Hedonist egoistic societies are hard towards them! We Catholics must be supportive! But also practical.

Yes, I can agree with that, but it is simply not practical or even useful to bring toddlers in baby carriers inside a church. It's like a radio that turns on and off whenever it wants.

Quote:If they walk out with their crying baby, you should agree with me, that that is enough. And that it is also commendable to take children to church very early on - to teach them normal church regularity.

Sure but I know well enough that children were far more disciplined in the past. When I was a child and attended N.O. Mass I never, ever heard a baby cry and I myself did not start running around or walk in and out of church. It is not too much to ask to be respectful when the H. Mass is being said , I hope.

Quote:I think you were not only an innocent baby or kid at that age. You think you were. But is that reality? Ask your parents.

Not even during my baptism I cried or made a fuss. Even when I was a child I had to tell my parents to be quiet. The usual answer was: "But this is not a monastery!". ("We zijn hier niet in 't klooster!").

Quote:Of course a Suisse or a guard could help parents 'catch' children. But children biologically are hard to entertain. Above 5 years of age, things should go better. Above the age of reason (7 yrs old), it should be gone. Until that, we should show some patience.

Okay, I can agree fully with that because it is rational, but if the child is unteachable or is known to throw a tantrum easily, it simply should not be taken into church. It could stay at home, stand in the corner or do maths exercises instead. Next time it will be calm, hopefully, and can start to appricate H. Mass.

Quote:Or else you might want to attend Holy Mass in a elderly retirement home chapel instead. (No pun intended.) [Image: fish.gif]

I tried that already, believe you me. Just all reverence is gone there, it is a chore. A retired N.O. priest who thinks women should be made priests and alters the prayers in this fashion, too. No thanks.
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