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Full Version: How bad would a Novus Ordo Mass have to be to justify not attending?
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(05-13-2009, 04:53 PM)Melita Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-13-2009, 04:45 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-13-2009, 04:43 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-13-2009, 04:33 PM)Melita Wrote: [ -> ]But that doesn't define the presbyter's function...

It does elsewhere. I just chose a random use of the word in the Bible.

I meant Latin-to-English translation - it's always been "priest", hasn't it?

So the difference is stylistic? But you mentioned a proper distinction!

No, I've tried to explain that the difference is principle.
(05-13-2009, 05:12 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-13-2009, 04:53 PM)Melita Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-13-2009, 04:45 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-13-2009, 04:43 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-13-2009, 04:33 PM)Melita Wrote: [ -> ]But that doesn't define the presbyter's function...

It does elsewhere. I just chose a random use of the word in the Bible.

I meant Latin-to-English translation - it's always been "priest", hasn't it?

So the difference is stylistic? But you mentioned a proper distinction!

No, I've tried to explain that the difference is principle.

But you haven't yet... you're arguing that one cultural interpretation (by Protestants no less) is worth considering because it may cast ambiguity on the status of "priests". I thought there would be an official definition of both terms and how they differ, if they do.
(05-13-2009, 04:45 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]I meant Latin-to-English translation - it's always been "priest", hasn't it?

In the Middle English Bible by John Wycliffe (not Catholic) the word "preest" is used (priest). "priest" comes from the Greek form of the Latin word.

So the English translation of presbyter was "priest" for a long time, but then again, leafwyrm was the word for caterpillar at that time, so English precedents don't matter.
(05-13-2009, 05:16 PM)Melita Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-13-2009, 05:12 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-13-2009, 04:53 PM)Melita Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-13-2009, 04:45 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-13-2009, 04:43 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-13-2009, 04:33 PM)Melita Wrote: [ -> ]But that doesn't define the presbyter's function...

It does elsewhere. I just chose a random use of the word in the Bible.

I meant Latin-to-English translation - it's always been "priest", hasn't it?

So the difference is stylistic? But you mentioned a proper distinction!

No, I've tried to explain that the difference is principle.

But you haven't yet... you're arguing that one cultural interpretation (by Protestants no less) is worth considering because it may cast ambiguity on the status of "priests". I thought there would be an official definition of both terms and how they differ, if they do.

Protestants use and believe "presbyrate" to be a title denoting one who presides over a communal meal (Presbyterians for instance). They do not believe in the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Whether or not the words are synonymous to Catholics is irrelevant because it only reinforces the disbelief in priestly faculty by Protestant attendants. Protestants may come to the Mass, but if they don't believe in what is actually happening through the hands of the priest, they are not Catholic. This is the same principle as eliminating the emphasis of the Sacrifice of the Mass. Many argue that the Sacrifice is still there, and I'm not debating that; but the elimination is used to make it more acceptable to the world's standards of Christianity which is not Catholic. If we were to get the whole world to abandon its pagan ways in favor of the world's standards of Christianity (Protestantism), the Church would have failed in its Supreme Law: the salvation of souls.
(05-13-2009, 05:12 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]No, I've tried to explain that the difference is principle.

But this principle doesn't exist does it?

They use "priest" wrong also.
(05-13-2009, 05:27 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]Protestants use and believe "presbyrate" to be a title denoting one who presides over a communal meal (Presbyterians for instance). They do not believe in the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Whether or not the words are synonymous to Catholics is irrelevant because it only reinforces the disbelief in priestly faculty by Protestant attendants. Protestants may come to the Mass, but if they don't believe in what is actually happening through the hands of the priest, they are not Catholic. This is the same principle as eliminating the emphasis of the Sacrifice of the Mass. Many argue that the Sacrifice is still there, and I'm not debating that; but the elimination is used to make it more acceptable to the world's standards of Christianity which is not Catholic. If we were to get the whole world to abandon its pagan ways in favor of the world's standards of Christianity (Protestantism), the Church would have failed in its Supreme Law: the salvation of souls.

They also use the word "priest" like that as well.
(05-13-2009, 05:27 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]Middle English Bible by John Wycliffe (not Catholic)

I remember looking at Wycliffe's proto-Protestantism (where it applies to 'Piers Ploughman'). The way it spread through English universities is shocking.
(05-13-2009, 05:28 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-13-2009, 05:27 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]Protestants use and believe "presbyrate" to be a title denoting one who presides over a communal meal (Presbyterians for instance). They do not believe in the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Whether or not the words are synonymous to Catholics is irrelevant because it only reinforces the disbelief in priestly faculty by Protestant attendants. Protestants may come to the Mass, but if they don't believe in what is actually happening through the hands of the priest, they are not Catholic. This is the same principle as eliminating the emphasis of the Sacrifice of the Mass. Many argue that the Sacrifice is still there, and I'm not debating that; but the elimination is used to make it more acceptable to the world's standards of Christianity which is not Catholic. If we were to get the whole world to abandon its pagan ways in favor of the world's standards of Christianity (Protestantism), the Church would have failed in its Supreme Law: the salvation of souls.

They also use the word "priest" like that as well.

Do they? I have not heard this from the Protestant majority, which should be considered. Protestants detest the word priest because it implies a special faculty that is believed by Catholics; the term denotes a recognition of that faculty. I've only heard it used by Protestants when speaking to Catholics because they know Catholics call their "leaders" 'priests' and will know what they mean. But they do this because they don't believe that there is a difference between "Minister" and priest. I've never known any Protestant to choose association of his faith with Catholicism unless they don't believe there is a difference. "Priest" has been used by Catholics for centuries; if it has been perverted by Protestants then there is no reason to concede to a term that has always been used by Protestants as denoting a lack of faculty.

Edit: Fallibility - historical accuracy.
(05-13-2009, 05:41 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]Do they? I have not heard this from the Protestant majority, which should be considered. Protestants detest the word priest because it implies a special faculty that is believed by Catholics; the term denotes a recognition of that faculty. I've only heard it used by Protestants when speaking to Catholics because they know Catholics call their "leaders" 'priests' and will know what they mean. But they do this because they don't believe that there is a difference between "Minister" and priest.
Those who are against the Catholic priest use are so because everyone is a priest who believes as they do. They don't think priests as a concept don't exist, just that it is nothing special. They also use grape juice for "consecration" which they don't believe to have any change and they have women ministers as well.

Quote:"Priest" has been used by Catholics for centuries; if it has been perverted by Protestants then there is no reason to concede to a term that has always been used by Protestants as denoting a lack of faculty.

No, it has always been the English form of the Greek word which comes from the Latin "presbyter". Priest is presbyter having gone through Greek and Anglo-Saxon changes.

Priest was just a way to translate the Greek word from the original text and the Latin word from the Vulgate. Yes, those who deny the priesthood do change the word, but they don't use the same family of words, but an entirely different one like "elder" or "minister".
(05-13-2009, 10:19 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-13-2009, 08:59 AM)Scipio_a Wrote: [ -> ]The presbyter would not do it so he had asked me to a day or two before.  I said I did not want to and he got all pissy.

Interesting that you called him a "presbyter" (which I know was intentional) because, as you know, it is the post-VII word used to replace the word "priest" in the Rite of Ordination. Traditionally, a priest is one who performs a sacrifice; a presbyter is one who presides over a religious communion. Why would you change that unless you didn't want anyone to think that a sacrifice, in this case, the Spotless Sacrifice, was being offered?

What's funny here is that I had to sift through 2 pages of people going back and forth with you and it's me they actually have the issue with.  I can't tell you how funny I found that.  I'm actually laughing.

You used your superman vision and got me!  Yes I was a bit disappointed in my grandma's funeral (English understatement there).  Also I am of the opinion, as you know, that there is a chance that any given NO is not validly performed for a list of reasons alread posted several times that I know at least you have seen. and read.  Further, as pinted out in those posts I am one of the folks that thinks there are few NOs that are real Masses at this point 40 years later.  I grant the possibility of validity.

Also as a matter of history I make sure to use 'presbyter' wheneven talking with my dad, and this is dad history so it may have been due to that if no other reason.  However, you are right.
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