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(05-30-2009, 07:09 PM)newschoolman Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-30-2009, 05:46 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-30-2009, 01:04 PM)newschoolman Wrote: [ -> ]Stephen, are we to be surprised that you defend Bishop W's rupture theology?  On the contrary, the documents of VII are really Catholic (ABL signed all 16) -- and the Magisterium of the Popes has not defected. 

newschoolman, are we to be suprised that you are attacking Bishop W's defense of the traditional understanding of the Church's teachings? 

Where does +W say the Magisterium of the Popes has defected?

Do you mean explicity or implicitly by a logical connection with other assertions?

From the one blog post I'm not so sure how you make the connection that Williamson is necessarily talking about the magisterium or teaching authority of the Pope.
(05-30-2009, 07:09 PM)newschoolman Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-30-2009, 05:46 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-30-2009, 01:04 PM)newschoolman Wrote: [ -> ]Stephen, are we to be surprised that you defend Bishop W's rupture theology?  On the contrary, the documents of VII are really Catholic (ABL signed all 16) -- and the Magisterium of the Popes has not defected. 

newschoolman, are we to be suprised that you are attacking Bishop W's defense of the traditional understanding of the Church's teachings? 

Where does +W say the Magisterium of the Popes has defected?

Do you mean explicity or implicitly by a logical connection with other assertions?

Wow, not only an expert theologian, but an expert logician, too?  Now I'm really impressed.  Rolling eyes
(05-30-2009, 06:50 PM)finegan Wrote: [ -> ]I think "Newschoolman" may be the same guy who goes by the moniker "Catholicdad" over on AQ. If not, he's got to be a close relative. These guys live in a dream world, and twist Catholic teaching to fit their own anti-Traditional Catholic bias. They fancy themselves as armchair theologians who can lecture learned Catholic prelates like Bishop Williamson on matters of faith and church teaching. Newschoolman or Bishop Williamson? I think I'll stick with the latter, thank you.  Huh?

No, I am not that other guy.  In any case, I have found +Williamson very personable and with some very good qualities.  In terms of Catholic teaching, I prefer to stick to Rome and the Magisterium of the Popes -- from Peter to Benedict XVI inclusive.
(05-30-2009, 06:27 PM)didishroom Wrote: [ -> ]Now let us discuss a few problem situations. We begin with the problem of an heretical pope. Regarding a pope who, while in office, may become heretical, Saint Robert Bellarmine posits five opinions for consideration:

Interestingly enough, Neo-Catholics and Sedevacantists both believe that Popes can't be heretical. Sedevacantists always point to St. Robert Bellarmine. St. Bellarmine got it wrong. popes can be heretical. St. Robert Bellarmine is not the Magisterium. The Magisterium trumps him in this matter. 
(05-30-2009, 05:06 PM)newschoolman Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-30-2009, 05:03 PM)lamentabili sane Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-30-2009, 01:04 PM)newschoolman Wrote: [ -> ]Stephen, are we to be surprised that you defend Bishop W's rupture theology?  On the contrary, the documents of VII are really Catholic (ABL signed all 16) -- and the Magisterium of the Popes has not defected.  

Except none of this addressing the facts of the crisis. Like I said schoolman, you are arguing with facts.

I refer you to the Papal Address to the Roman Curia (December 22, 2005).

Why?
(05-30-2009, 09:19 PM)SaintRafael Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-30-2009, 06:27 PM)didishroom Wrote: [ -> ]Now let us discuss a few problem situations. We begin with the problem of an heretical pope. Regarding a pope who, while in office, may become heretical, Saint Robert Bellarmine posits five opinions for consideration:

Interestingly enough, Neo-Catholics and Sedevacantists both believe that Popes can't be heretical. Sedevacantists always point to St. Robert Bellarmine. St. Bellarmine got it wrong. popes can be heretical. St. Robert Bellarmine is not the Magisterium. The Magisterium trumps him in this matter.   

I have already quoted abundantly from the Magisterium on this point.  If you don't like Bellermine then consider Cardinal Journet who comments on Peter's personal indefectibility.  The following is taken from footnote #4 from the work "Rupture Theology" cited above:

Cardinal Journet notes that the indefectibility of the magisterium or “teaching Church” is linked to the indefectibility of Peter: “At the end of St. Matthew's Gospel, Jesus, to whom all power has been given in heaven and on earth, sends His disciples to evangelize the world, promising His assistance till the end of the world. What is explicitly designated here is the indefectibility of the teaching Church. But the teaching Church, and every believing Church sustained by her, has Peter for foundation (Matt. xvi. 13-20). To say that the Church is truly indefectible, and that it is truly based on the assistance promised to Peter, is to say in a way that is as yet implicit but already real that the assistance promised to Peter is indefectible….To say that the flock of Christ has a visible pastor on earth, and to say that this flock is indefectible, is to say in a way that is still undoubtedly latent, but real, that the visible pastor of the Church is, as such, indefectible.” (Cf. Journet, The Church of the Word Incarnate, Sheed and Ward, 1955, pp. 440-441)
(05-30-2009, 08:36 PM)newschoolman Wrote: [ -> ]No, I am not that other guy.  In any case, I have found +Williamson very personable and with some very good qualities.   In terms of Catholic teaching, I prefer to stick to Rome and the Magisterium of the Popes -- from Peter to Benedict XVI inclusive.

By sticking to the Magisterium, does this include the Dogmatic infallible Councils? On this thread, you have have refused to acknowledge the infallible Third Council of Constantinople.  The Council that declares Honorius a heretic and anathematizes him. From Peter to Benedict you skip Pope Agatho and Leo II who condemn Honoruis.
How come to this day Pope Honorius is still ex-communicated and anathematized and the ex-communication has never been revoked?
(05-30-2009, 06:50 PM)finegan Wrote: [ -> ]I think "Newschoolman" may be the same guy who goes by the moniker "Catholicdad" over on AQ. If not, he's got to be a close relative.

Nah. Catholicdad is probably the same one we had here for awhile. He could be almost as annoying as Newschoolman (tho' I liked him in spite of it!).
(05-30-2009, 09:19 PM)SaintRafael Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-30-2009, 06:27 PM)didishroom Wrote: [ -> ]Now let us discuss a few problem situations. We begin with the problem of an heretical pope. Regarding a pope who, while in office, may become heretical, Saint Robert Bellarmine posits five opinions for consideration:

Interestingly enough, Neo-Catholics and Sedevacantists both believe that Popes can't be heretical. Sedevacantists always point to St. Robert Bellarmine. St. Bellarmine got it wrong. popes can be heretical. St. Robert Bellarmine is not the Magisterium. The Magisterium trumps him in this matter.   

This is incorrect. No Pope or theologian has ever taught that a pope (in his capacity as pope) can be a heretic. What is not certain is whether a pope can be a heretic as a private person.

Also, saying something heretical does not necessarily make one a heretic. There are many distinctions to be made here and FYI Bellarmine is the leading theological authority on the Church and the papacy since the Reformation.
(05-30-2009, 09:27 PM)newschoolman Wrote: [ -> ]I have already quoted abundantly from the Magisterium on this point. 

No you haven't. You have quoted theologians and their theological opinions. Writings from journals, books.
The Ordinary Magisterium are Council documents, Papal documents and other Magisterial documents.
Opinions from theologians, clerics are the authentic Magisterium, but not the Infallible Ordinary Magisterium.
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