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I have a question for all those who blame the Council for the bad shape of the Church: How do they expect a renewal?

In the last 2000 years always a Council brought the renewal:

- Nicea from the depth of Arianism

- Constance from the Great Western Schism

- Trident from the destructivr effect of the Protestantism

Blaming Vatican II, and practically stating that all the bishops of the Earth could agree and sign something which is destructive, destroys the authority of the concept of any Council. What will then lift the Church from the depth of the Modernism?

Would not be better to search for the chain of events, as a complex issue, instead of blaming Vatican II?

Matt 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

laszlo
Vatican II is rather unique as a council, so it is hard to compare it to the past.

Vatican II was not started for the same reasons as the councils which sought to resolve issues. In fact, it is hard to say why VII was started at all.
:safe:
Additionally, if the texts of Vatican II had actually been followed instead of the "spirit" thereof, the Church would still have suffered decline, but certainly not the utter calamity that She witnessed.

I am inclined to think that the so-called "spirit of Vatican II" did not so much arise from the Council as give to its proceedings and texts their form and matter; it was already imbibing minds in the 1950s (see, eg, Cardinal Cushing). The Council opened a can of worms simply by gathering in one place the world's bishops, a great number whereof were infected with an optimistic modernism which, out in the open, appealed to Catholics yearning for change, thereby setting the scene for the subsequent developments of the revolution.

Vatican II is therefore not to be blamed so much for its texts as for its giving occasion to the effervescence of modernism; many of its texts certainly are ghastly, but they alone could not account for what has happened over the past forty years or so.
(06-30-2009, 08:06 PM)Iuvenalis Wrote: [ -> ]:safe:

Got room for another under there?

:safe:
(06-30-2009, 08:13 PM)flannerywannabe Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-30-2009, 08:06 PM)Iuvenalis Wrote: [ -> ]:safe:

Got room for another under there?

:safe:

Don't get popcorn on the floor both of you.
Are you positive that those councils brought instant renewal?  After Nicea especially, I remember reading about things being pretty ugly for a while. 
(06-30-2009, 08:16 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-30-2009, 08:13 PM)flannerywannabe Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-30-2009, 08:06 PM)Iuvenalis Wrote: [ -> ]:safe:

Got room for another under there?

:safe:

Don't get popcorn on the floor both of you.

*sweeps dutifully*

Please continue. :)
(06-30-2009, 08:13 PM)flannerywannabe Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-30-2009, 08:06 PM)Iuvenalis Wrote: [ -> ]:safe:

Got room for another under there?

:safe:

We can circle the chairs! ;D

:safe:
glgas Wrote:I have a question for all those who blame the Council for the bad shape of the Church: How do they expect a renewal?

You are going to see a number of much needed tweaks in traditionalist arguments in the next couple of decades. With Summorum Pontificum and the general conservative shift in Latin Christianity, one will start seeing some of the more hostile, myopic views of traditional Catholics evaporate. In its place a greater understanding of the serious weakness which existed in the Church in the 1920s, 30s, 40s, etc will emerge. In short, one will start to see more perspective in the traditionalist camp. Even within the last five years weak traditionalist arguments stemming from documents like Quo Primum, for instance, have gone by the wayside, having been replaced with tighter points critiquing the philosophical errors of elements of Vatican II.
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