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(07-06-2009, 02:48 PM)orate Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-06-2009, 02:43 PM)lamentabili sane Wrote: [ -> ]Some of us were discussing what Pope Pius XI has said, not what  Bp. Williamson said. The Catholic Faith is not just a collection of de fide pronouncements.

The topic of this thread id His Excellency's letter of 7-04-09.  I am not the one who is off topic.

Divini Illius Magistri addresses A topic that Bp. Williamson touched on. You may dismiss Bp. Williamson...but not Pope Pius XI teaching.
(07-06-2009, 02:51 PM)lamentabili sane Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-06-2009, 02:48 PM)orate Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-06-2009, 02:43 PM)lamentabili sane Wrote: [ -> ]Some of us were discussing what Pope Pius XI has said, not what  Bap. Williamson said. The Catholic Faith is not just a collection of de fide pronouncements.

The topic of this thread id His Excellency's letter of 7-04-09.  I am not the one who is off topic.

Divine Illus Magisterial addresses the topic that Bap. Williamson touched on. You may dismiss Bap. Williamson...but not Pope Pius XI teaching.

And as Lisa pointed out earlier in this thread, Divine Illus Magisterial speaks only of modesty  and education--not women who play competitive sports.  Thus it is not per tinant to that discussion.
(07-06-2009, 02:55 PM)orate Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-06-2009, 02:51 PM)lamentabili sane Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-06-2009, 02:48 PM)orate Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-06-2009, 02:43 PM)lamentabili sane Wrote: [ -> ]Some of us were discussing what Pope Pius XI has said, not what  Bap. Williamson said. The Catholic Faith is not just a collection of de fide pronouncements.

The topic of this thread id His Excellency's letter of 7-04-09.  I am not the one who is off topic.

Divine Illus Magisterial addresses the topic that Bap. Williamson touched on. You may dismiss Bap. Williamson...but not Pope Pius XI teaching.

And as Lisa pointed out earlier in this thread, Divine Illus Magisterial speaks only of modesty  and education--not women who play competitive sports.  Thus it is not per tinant to that discussion.

These are PRINCIPLES.

"Divini Illius Magistri" Wrote:These principles, with due regard to time and place, must, in accordance with Christian prudence, be applied to all schools, particularly in the most delicate and decisive period of formation, that, namely, of adolescence; and in gymnastic exercises and deportment, special care must be had of Christian modesty in young women and girls, which is so gravely impaired by any kind of exhibition in public.
(07-06-2009, 12:08 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]I'm all for modesty. I'm all for marriage and children, woman's highest calling (I'm a mother and grandmother myself). And for the record I hate athletics. And I'm not really a pom-pom-pro-warrior pagan. I just like to ruffle a few feathers from time to time.

And I am certainly a strict Catholic girl. I know the difference between dogma and discipline - between Tradition with a big "T" and tradition with a small "t". There are attitudes and norms in society, culture, liturgy, that are subject to change. And then there is Church dogma which never changes. And I don't confuse the two. So yes I'm strict in the strictest sense of the word.

On the Internet you can claim to be whatever you want. The issue is not who you are. Bishop Williamson has identified women's professional sports as an example of how our Pagan culture masculinizes women to the extent that the population is unable to reproduce itself. You criticize H.E. but are unable to refute his position.
(07-06-2009, 03:06 PM)columba Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-06-2009, 12:08 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]I'm all for modesty. I'm all for marriage and children, woman's highest calling (I'm a mother and grandmother myself). And for the record I hate athletics. And I'm not really a pom-pom-pro-warrior pagan. I just like to ruffle a few feathers from time to time.

And I am certainly a strict Catholic girl. I know the difference between dogma and discipline - between Tradition with a big "T" and tradition with a small "t". There are attitudes and norms in society, culture, liturgy, that are subject to change. And then there is Church dogma which never changes. And I don't confuse the two. So yes I'm strict in the strictest sense of the word.

On the Internet you can claim to be whatever you want. The issue is not who you are. Bishop Williamson has identified women's professional sports as an example of how our Pagan culture masculinizes women to the extent that the population is unable to reproduce itself. You criticize H.E. but are unable to refute his position.
No, his points have already been refuted by a number of posters.
To summarize:
Sport is not responsible for the masculinization of women because a), it does not impair childbearing but in fact can assist it, and that b) it exists in a societies with very feminine women. This could not be true if it denatured women. You may note that all the married women and mothers who responded can hardly be accused of being against children, yet we have all supported women's sports.
(07-06-2009, 03:06 PM)columba Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-06-2009, 12:08 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]I'm all for modesty. I'm all for marriage and children, woman's highest calling (I'm a mother and grandmother myself). And for the record I hate athletics. And I'm not really a pom-pom-pro-warrior pagan. I just like to ruffle a few feathers from time to time.

And I am certainly a strict Catholic girl. I know the difference between dogma and discipline - between Tradition with a big "T" and tradition with a small "t". There are attitudes and norms in society, culture, liturgy, that are subject to change. And then there is Church dogma which never changes. And I don't confuse the two. So yes I'm strict in the strictest sense of the word.

On the Internet you can claim to be whatever you want. The issue is not who you are. Bishop Williamson has identified women's professional sports as an example of how our Pagan culture masculinizes women to the extent that the population is unable to reproduce itself. You criticize H.E. but are unable to refute his position.

My Catholicity was “challenged” on this forum and I gave an explanation of where I stand. I didn’t even mention Bp Williamson’s name nor did I say to what degree I agreed or disagreed with him. The pom poms were a joke. A little “exercise” in emoticon humor. A little cheerleading for those who had the “testosterone” to stand up to all the pontificating.

As for Bp Williamson I can’t honestly comment on his bias without it getting tangled up in my own biases. I said I don’t like athletics. Male or female. In fact, I think our culture has been more damaged by MEN who sit before the pagan god of the television set -  idolizing sports over Sunday Mass, quality time with their wives and families.

- Lisa
(07-06-2009, 10:14 AM)didishroom Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:They are there to watch some good Tennis playing.

So there must be nothing wrong with watching cross dressing men pose as female celebrities and sing.  It's just watching a good show.  Right? 




Quote:When have I denied the differences between men and women?

When you presume there is no conflict between what someone does and their nature when there plainly is.

Quote:Did I say there are no difficulties in pregnancy or that it is a vacation? You've just did this whole rant about me misrepresenting what others say and now you've done the same thing! Pregnancy is not an accomplishment. I'm sorry, it just isn't. Every day I convert food into energy, which is pretty amazing except it wasn't "me" but my body. Having sex and not killing a baby is NOT an accomplishment. Raising a child is.

You are your body in conjuction with your soul.  You are not a "spirit" in a body.  You are a being made up of body and spirit.  If your body accomplishes something.  You accomplished it.  It doesn't matter whether or not it is a motivated task or not.  By your reasoning, no one who has ever gotten through cancer accomplished anything either. 

Quote:Your whole argument against women playing Tennis is that it prevents them from being mothers! 

No.  It is not my whole argument.  My argument is that the activity they do, naturally works against their feminine nature.  One of the sure fire signs that God didn't intend for women to do things like that is the toll it takes on their bodies, specifically their procreative abilities.

Quote:Yes, it's only hard to imagine a woman doing a certain something unless you don't think she can do it. (And your calling those women "doctressess" shows that you take the authority of Williamson over Paul VI, when he declared that the pope can't make women Doctors of the Church.)

Paul VI didn't have authority over the natural law.  If he'd called those saintly women, "the greatest of men" he would have been plainly wrong.  Authority as Pope means nothing in those matters of fact.  Funny how making a distinction between male and female doctors is somehow a perjorative.  I guess some people view women as not being dignified enough for their own identification.

Quote:
Quote:That's not an excuse.  That's a valid question.  Prove that the modern university is such a panacea for women.  You present your position as if going to College is the be all and end all of life.  Some of the dumbest people I've met have some of the best educations. 

Again with the misrepresenting you insolent  hypocrite.

Well make distinctions and stop trying to hide behind broad imprecise declarations.  You see nothing wrong with women and men being corrupted in the modern day Universities as long as they want to go. 

Quote: I am discussing the morality of certain things not whether or not such acts would be wise or prudent. Personally I agree that most colleges stink and I hate that I am there and spending so much money in it. But Williamson again wasn't simply criticizing the abuse of college today but the idea of women going to college at all.

What's your problem with that?  Why should women go to college?  What is the purpose of college?  Just who should go to college?  Should everyone go to college?  Why or why not? 

Here's a bit of truth that they won't teach you in college.  It's a complete rip-off.  They don't know what they are talking about, they are unhinged from reality in virtually all the disciplines and they are creating incomplete thinkers and servile thnkers.  They are bastard institutions illicilitly using the term "University" to describe their Indoctrination Centers.

Quote:[quote]No. He blames men for not preventing the de-naturing of the women. 
Yeah he blames the men for not controlling their women.

Your feminist teacher might spin it that way.  "Opressive Patriarchy" and all that guff.  With snarky comments you also dodge the whole topic of  de-naturiing women.  If you admit that, then your whole argument is lost. 

It's the chauvenist that loves what a woman can do for him.  It's the chivalrous man that loves the woman and does for her.  It's Williamson who teaches more clearly than anybody that a mans' job is to love the woman and sacrifice everything if necessary to facilitate getting the souls under his care to heaven.  Nothing else matters.  It's Williamson who teaches that the best example a man can give for his children is to love his wife.  It's Williamson who teaches that men are not to be tyrants to women or children but to be humble before God and when the head of the family takes the lead by submitting to Christ, the wife will willingly submit to the husband by his example and the children with a little discipline (ie teaching) will accept their place and learn from their models.  Everything follows that pattern in life even the single lay person or the religious fit into those models.  Family is everything for the survival and salvation of the population.  Women do have to be stupid to be humble and men don't have to tyrants to be strong and take the lead and carry the burdens of life. 

Quote: So why is playing Tennis automatically masculine? Why bring up boxing? Who here is talking about boxing you moron!

Since Tennis was more than likely invented by the monks in France and has a confrontational basis in it.  As Bishop Williamson pointed out , it is a form of Gladiatorial competition.  It is masculine in its essence.  You don't think women are being womanly when they are boxing?  The principals are the same, if you think women should play pro tennis,


Quote:Read Chesterton's "Emancipation of Domesticity" ...that if you look on Amazon at Rachael Ray's cookbook writeup and Alton Brown's you can see the difference in the male and female emphasis.  Ray's book is about providing for families.  Brown's book is about conquering the recipe using proper tools, technique and organized know-how. 

Quote:....and? What does this half to do with sports? 

It goes back to the point you won't admit to.  The de-naturing of women.  I realize you use illustrations and proofs as opportunities to go off on a tangent.  But once you deal with the de-naturing of women phenomena, the conversation will move forward.  You'll learn something and you won't furrow your brow in frustration and lash out like your liberal college teachers have taught you to. 

Quote: 
Quote:So you are saying that men need to do certain jobs and women are distractions from the men's focus either through their beauty or because of the man's nature to protect women?  And that man are naturally superior in these jobs that are outside the scope of the nurturing family unit?  You sound like Bishop Williamson and St. Thomas Aquinas. 

..........and? I told you I didn't disagree with Williamson on everything and you didn't believe. Well here's your proof.

So you disagree with Williamson only on those points that he doesn't hold.  The ones you say he does. 



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(07-06-2009, 03:39 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]As for Bp Williamson I can’t honestly comment on his bias without it getting tangled up in my own biases. I said I don’t like athletics. Male or female. In fact, I think our culture has been more damaged by MEN who sit before the pagan god of the television set -  idolizing sports over Sunday Mass, quality time with their wives and families.

- Lisa

That's definitely one thing in which you share agreement with Bishop W.  Bernard Janzen asked him in one interview what kinds of "idols" we make in the modern world that break the first commandment.  He answered "Sports" and how men take what could be a healthy recreation and turn it into an idol. 
refer to me former post.
says it all
Quote:So there must be nothing wrong with watching cross dressing men pose as female celebrities and sing.  It's just watching a good show.  Right? 
You said people were going to watch women's tennis because they dress immodestly. I replied that people go to watch Tennis. You countered that with a comparison to.........cross dressing?



Quote:You are your body in conjuction with your soul.  You are not a "spirit" in a body.  You are a being made up of body and spirit.  If your body accomplishes something.  You accomplished it.  It doesn't matter whether or not it is a motivated task or not.   By your reasoning, no one who has ever gotten through cancer accomplished anything either. 
It's nothing special though-billions of women conceive and give birth all the time. Seriously, I don't count it any more of an accomplishment than my digesting food.



Quote:No.  It is not my whole argument.  My argument is that the activity they do, naturally works against their feminine nature.  One of the sure fire signs that God didn't intend for women to do things like that is the toll it takes on their bodies, specifically their procreative abilities.
There are many other things which can mess with a woman's menstrual cycle. So long as it is not the intent to stop conception, who cares? I'm sure the constrictive clothing lots of male athletes wear kill sperm too.



Quote:Paul VI didn't have authority over the natural law.  If he'd called those saintly women, "the greatest of men" he would have been plainly wrong.  Authority as Pope means nothing in those matters of fact.  Funny how making a distinction between male and female doctors is somehow a perjorative.  I guess some people view women as not being dignified enough for their own identification.
Yes Paul VI could not have said, say, St. Catherine of Sienna, was a man; but he didn't. "Doctor" is a man made thing-a title. Where you get off saying that a title definition is beyond the pope's authority is beyond me.


Quote:Well make distinctions and stop trying to hide behind broad imprecise declarations.  You see nothing wrong with women and men being corrupted in the modern day Universities as long as they want to go
Man you're great at twisting words around, aren't you?   


Quote:What's your problem with that?  Why should women go to college?  What is the purpose of college?  Just who should go to college?  Should everyone go to college?  Why or why not? 
That's not the point. The decision to go to college is up the individual. I was simply criticizing Williamson's stance that it was unnatural for women to go to higher education.



Quote:Your feminist teacher might spin it that way.  "Opressive Patriarchy" and all that guff.  With snarky comments you also dodge the whole topic of  de-naturiing women.  If you admit that, then your whole argument is lost. 
Stop jumping all over the place. I was simply pointing out what the Bishop was saying and then you take that and accuse me of supporting the de-natureing of women. You obviously don't even care what I'm saying. You just take every opportunity to try and make it seem as if I'm advocating a gender=bender=feminazi=utopian.
 

Quote:Since Tennis was more than likely invented by the monks in France and has a confrontational basis in it.  As Bishop Williamson pointed out , it is a form of Gladiatorial competition.  It is masculine in its essence.   You don't think women are being womanly when they are boxing?   The principals are the same, if you think women should play pro tennis
Saying it is 'gladiatorial' is stupid because that is his own term which is not defined. And what exactly is womanly? Sitting inside and knitting dollies all day? Is getting on your hands and knees and scrubbing a floor till you're sweaty, arms straining and hair in disarray "womanly?"



Quote:You'll learn something and you won't furrow your brow in frustration and lash out like your liberal college teachers have taught you to.
Stop pretending that you know anything about me or what I learn in school. 




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