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Full Version: JPII or Benedict XVI who has made a bigger impact?
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Pope Benedict has been in office for only a few years, but the Church has seen tremendous positive change in a relatively short time. The New liturgical Movement has finally started to gain traction in the "mainstream" church due to Pope Benedicts example and the liberation of the traditional mass. The traditional mass has finally been liberated and I think that this will have a tremendous long term impact on the Church and in the short term helps to get members of the Church back on track towards liturgical normalcy and orthodoxy. We have also seen a trend towards orthodox teaching within the Catholic Church and a wave of conversions(such as the TAC) that are due probably at least in part to the fact that Joseph Ratzinger sits on the throne of Peter. I think Pope Benedicts plan is to make a better and purer Church so that the Church can evangelize more effectively, while JPIIs approach was to go directly to the people. He was such an effective communicator that this worked quite well, in some ways, but I think he did not focus on the governing of the Church to the extent that Benedict has. I think we may have seen more real change within the Church during Benedicts reign already than through all of JPII's reign.

I do believe however that JPII personally was a holy man, but I am not so sure that he was very good at governing the Church.
On the positive side; B16. JPII was at the helm when the liturgy could have been saved fairly easy. JPII failed to guide the barque of Peter. So on the negative side; JPII.

It is my belief that history will be far more favorable to B16.
(08-18-2009, 11:35 PM)trident59 Wrote: [ -> ]On the positive side; B16. JPII was at the helm when the liturgy could have been saved fairly easy. JPII failed to guide the barque of Peter. So on the negative side; JPII.

It is my belief that history will be far more favorable to B16.

Agreed JPII was a terribe Pope but Benedict at least is trying to get the liturgy going strait if not the doctrine.
sheep101 Wrote:while JPIIs approach was to go directly to the people

Before I give my meagre reply, I would like to ask to posters on this forum why Pope Jo. Paul (of happy memory) took this approach? The correct response will be helpful in understanding a great deal about his reign. Answer away ...
Credo:

Pehaps JPII thought that a return to a more traditional Catholicism had to begin with the people rather than being imposed from above.  Now whether a pope should be thinking like that is an open question, but maybe it will be said that John Paul II laid the egg that Benedict XVI hatched...
Pope JP II had a courageous event early during his Papacy when he order his plane to land in Poland against the wishes of the Communists government.  Not long after the commies shot him.  From these two events he was made into an heroic Pope and staunch conservative.  These two events sucked in the neo-Catholics and they defended him from then on out.  And as far as an anti-Communist, JPII certainly was, and I think it would be unfair not to give him substantial credit for bringing down the iron curtain.

However, JPII was a liberal and a suspect universalist.  The Holy Spirit prevented him from doing substantial damage, but JPII did very little to roll back the revolution.  We must give him credit on the question on women's ordinations, though it was somewhat weak, and his suppression of Liberation Theology, which again was weak.

Pope Benedict XVI has freed up the TLM and lifted the excommunications on the SSPX.  He has also corrected Vat. II somewhat by saying the Catholic Church IS the Church of Christ, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ.  Somewhat weak, but an improvement.  On the downside he sucked up somewhat to Jews and Moslems.  And the big problem is Caritas in Veritate, which I don't believe expresses his opinions.  I still hold that he was blackmailed on that.

All in all, Pope Benedict XVI is much better, and has made a bigger impact on the life of the Church. 
(08-19-2009, 01:16 PM)James02 Wrote: [ -> ]Pope JP II had a courageous event early during his Papacy when he order his plane to land in Poland against the wishes of the Communists government.  Not long after the commies shot him.  From these two events he was made into an heroic Pope and staunch conservative.  These two events sucked in the neo-Catholics and they defended him from then on out.  And as far as an anti-Communist, JPII certainly was, and I think it would be unfair not to give him substantial credit for bringing down the iron curtain.

However, JPII was a liberal and a suspect universalist.  The Holy Spirit prevented him from doing substantial damage, but JPII did very little to roll back the revolution.  We must give him credit on the question on women's ordinations, though it was somewhat weak, and his suppression of Liberation Theology, which again was weak.

Pope Benedict XVI has freed up the TLM and lifted the excommunications on the SSPX.  He has also corrected Vat. II somewhat by saying the Catholic Church IS the Church of Christ, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ.  Somewhat weak, but an improvement.  On the downside he sucked up somewhat to Jews and Moslems.  And the big problem is Caritas in Veritate, which I don't believe expresses his opinions.  I still hold that he was blackmailed on that.

All in all, Pope Benedict XVI is much better, and has made a bigger impact on the life of the Church. 

Did uphold teaching-in CA-of rerum Novarum and Quad.Anno, that was intact against the Modern/Enlightenment of Capitalism and Socialism, 2 twins that are geard toward and ultimately arranged whereas a few control the many......a system that, despite many examples is Freemasonic, Prot and Talmudic, you support James02...matter of fact, you quickly come out of woodwork to comment on alot.......liking the TLM does not alone make one a Catholic, the Faith is fully orbed..too many adopt Americanism (which goes along and has wide support for Capitalism), Capitalism, Socialism,etc......
Quote: Did uphold teaching-in CA-of rerum Novarum and Quad.Anno, that was intact against the Modern/Enlightenment of Capitalism and Socialism, 2 twins that are geard toward and ultimately arranged whereas a few control the many......a system that, despite many examples is Freemasonic, Prot and Talmudic, you support James02...matter of fact, you quickly come out of woodwork to comment on alot.......liking the TLM does not alone make one a Catholic, the Faith is fully orbed..too many adopt Americanism (which goes along and has wide support for Capitalism), Capitalism, Socialism,etc......
Thank you for typing all of this.  I think this one reply has done more to make Catholics support free market economics than anything I could write.

Quote: Capitalism and Socialism, 2 twins that are geard
This should be added to the dictionary under "sophism".  Capitalism and Socialism are "twins"?  They are opposites, unless you want to describe how they are twins.  Capitalism respects private property, socialism rejects it.  Capitalism presupposes Original Sin, Socialism rejects Original Sin and tries to set up a Utopia.

Quote: .liking the TLM does not alone make one a Catholic,
No, Baptism took care of that for me, reinforced with Confirmation and my continuing participation in the Sacraments.  Is there something else you want to say on me being a Catholic?

I don't think you can tell just yet. Benedict is still serving, and JPII hasn't been dead all that long.

The Catholic Church actually got some favorable publicity out of him - he was beloved around the world. Made the covers of a lot of magazines. He helped defeat godless communism in Russia and Eastern Europe. He finally got Mexico to ease up on the church. Until JPII's visit, priests weren't allowed to wear their clerics in public for the previous 60 or 70 years.

His problem was that he was primarily a philosopher, not an administrator or an enforcer. Benedict hasn't lived up to my hopes as an enforcer, either. He met with Nancy Pelosi, and failed to excommunicate her! As far as I can recall, the only head that's rolled of any consequence was the editor of that jesuit rag - and that ball supposedly got started rolling under JPII. 

Ask us again after Benedict's been dead for twenty years or so.
(08-19-2009, 10:47 AM)Pilgrim Wrote: [ -> ]Credo:

Pehaps JPII thought that a return to a more traditional Catholicism had to begin with the people rather than being imposed from above.  Now whether a pope should be thinking like that is an open question, but maybe it will be said that John Paul II laid the egg that Benedict XVI hatched...

that is something I wonder as well, right now seminaries are starting to fill up again and I wonder who is to be given credit for this.  Obviously, many young seminarians grew up under JPII therefore he could have sowed the seeds for the renewal, but I think Benedict has been doing some important things, like he has been putting emphasis on Catholic Identity and  the religious life, whereas JPII seemed to talk more about marriage and laity, and I think the former has been more successful in garnering interests.  Also, I think Benedict is picking bishops are more incline to his view of thinking, whereas I think JPII typically chose bishops who were good with either public relations or fundraising (which of course led to the appointments of some infamous bishops).  As I mentioned before in another post, JPII papacy could and will be tarnished at least from Church History point of view especially if the doctrinal talks with SSPX continue. 
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