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I am looking for the traditional funeral rite that would have been said for the Supreme Pontiffs from the beginning of the 20th century until 1962.  Does anyone have a link to such a text?
(08-29-2009, 04:23 PM)acatholiclife Wrote: [ -> ]I am looking for the traditional funeral rite that would have been said for the Supreme Pontiffs from the beginning of the 20th century until 1962.  Does anyone have a link to such a text?

Since at most the Liturgical rites would be Solemn Pontifical rites said by the Cardinal Dean (the most senior Cardinal Bishop in the College). When the Cardinal Dean would celebrate the Solemn Requiem Mass it would be done no differently than any bishop celebrating a Solemn Requiem. There would very likely be the Solemn Pontifical Absolution given after the Mass as well. The Office including Vespers of the dead on the night before the funeral and Matins and Lauds of the dead on the morning of the Funeral would almost certainly have been celebrated.

Textually and rubrically, aside from the color oddity the Mass would seem to have traditionally been identical to a typical Pontifical Requiem. The prayers used throughout the rite depend on the person for whom the rites are offered. Without looking, I think there is a particular prayer for deceased Popes which would be used.

I have never seen a picture of a Papal Funeral before that of John Paul II, but it seems that the traditional color used for the vestements would be red, not black.

There is also the Novemdiales, the nine day period following the death of the Pope during which Masses are celebrated for the repose of the soul of the Pope by various cardinals.
A requiem Mass is celebrated in black - even for the pope. The red nonsense started with Paul VI.
(08-29-2009, 09:35 PM)OldMan Wrote: [ -> ]A requiem Mass is celebrated in black - even for the pope. The red nonsense started with Paul VI.

I'm not old enough to have seen a Papal requiem prior to the last.

I know that the bodies of these popes are always dressed in formal Papal Mass attire with a miter simplex and red vestments, but what about the celebrant and assistants?

I have also read many people say that the "traditional color for the Pope is red". These are rubrical experts who who would have pointed out a change had they known that such had taken place. This, along with the use of red on the corpse, makes me wonder whether there had been a change, or exactly what is meant by the phrase "the Pope mourns in red". Was it traditionally that the body of the Pope was dressed in red, or that the Mass for his soul was said in red. It seems only first hand experience or a color photograph of a Papal Requiem prior to Paul VI would settle the matter.

Do you have a personal memory of seeing a Papal Requiem where black was used? Or do you know of color photographs of the funeral of John XXIII or Pius XII.
(08-29-2009, 09:35 PM)OldMan Wrote: [ -> ]A requiem Mass is celebrated in black - even for the pope. The red nonsense started with Paul VI.

Uh, no.

[Image: FuneralServiceforPopePiusXII2.jpg]

Although the picture is grainy, this is clearly Pope Pius XII.  He's wearing all the Papal vestments, and the corpse is heavily decomposed (thanks to the charlatan who embalmed him).  The guard in the picture is also part of one of the orders that Paul VI abolished.

[Image: LiesinState1958.jpg]

Here's His Holiness lying in state.  The red vestments can also been seen.

I don't know what the celebrants wore, but the deceased certainly wore red vestments.  And this was not a post-VII innovation.
(08-29-2009, 11:59 PM)MeaMaximaCulpa Wrote: [ -> ][Image: LiesinState1958.jpg]

Here's His Holiness lying in state.  The red vestments can also been seen.

No, I believe this is Cardinal Mooney of Detroit - not Pope Pius XII.  I have seen some confusion about this on the Internet. 
# Leo XIII (1878-1903)
# St. Pius X (1903-14)
# Benedict XV (1914-22)
# Pius XI (1922-39)
# Pius XII (1939-58)
# John XXIII (1958-63)

So, for these six popes, what actual texts would have been used for the Solemn Requiem?  I know about the 1955 changes but before that point I am not familiar enough on the rubrics.
(08-30-2009, 12:21 AM)acatholiclife Wrote: [ -> ]# Leo XIII (1878-1903)
# St. Pius X (1903-14)
# Benedict XV (1914-22)
# Pius XI (1922-39)
# Pius XII (1939-58)
# John XXIII (1958-63)

So, for these six popes, what actual texts would have been used for the Solemn Requiem?  I know about the 1955 changes but before that point I am not familiar enough on the rubrics.

As above, as far as I am aware there is no special Requiem specifically for the Pope, and since a Cardinal would be celebrating the Mass it would seem it would be the same text as the normal Requiem Mass for the day of burial with a special collect for the Pope instead of the one typically used for the faithful.

Rubrical changes in 1955 had no affect on the text or rubrics of the Requiem itself. The rubrical changes of 1960 had no affect on the actual Mass itself, only when certain Masses could be said and which and how many collects would be said at these.

Simply put the funeral of St. Pius X would have been identical to that of John XXIII.
You might be able to garner more info from these links:

http://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2009/0...preme.html

http://www.life.com/image/50388324

(08-30-2009, 04:19 PM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]You might be able to garner more info from these links:

http://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2009/0...preme.html

http://www.life.com/image/50388324

Thanks for the links.

The first one provides many more picture than I've seen yet. A few I had seen, including the video.

It is interesting that there is no color picture of the celebrant or ministers at the Requiem Mass. Matthew, the author of the post, it seems, says that the Pope is dressed in red, but the Mass is in black. This is possible, but there is no sourcing for the information, and no pictures to back that up. I at least question the accuracy of the statement, because when speaking of the absolution he mentions only a simple absolution, not the more solemn form done by bishops. Since such a Requiem would have cardinal bishops as celebrant, deacon and subdeacon, it's odd that he does not mention anything about this. The description of the absolution, as well, is a paraphrase of the typical rite don by priests. His comment that a black cope is used stands on the same problem we have with determining if the minister at a Papal Funeral wear red.

Really what we need to figure this out is a picture of the celebrant at a Papal Funeral of John XXIII or earlier. Alternatively a set of rubrics specifically for those Masses or pre-1965 documents detailing the funeral rite for the Pope, specifically as regards the color of the vestments.
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