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(09-25-2009, 06:45 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]Hinduism has what they consider or liken to a trinity.
Brhaman, kali, and vishnu I belive.
Same God?
If not why not? It seems many here r blinded in favor of mohamadanism is some way. Mohamadan false piety maybe is the reason or mohamadan false morality I'm not sure. But its shocking on a trad forum its shocking anytime such nonsense is spwed by catholics!!

b,k,v? Sure! why not, eh?  Are they the Father, the Word, and the Love that flows between them?  Are they consubstantial in a way that me and my glasses aren't?  I suspect not, but either way, it'd be a nifty hook for converting Hindus.  On the other hand, I'm not about to become any sort of Hindu myself.

How many times do I have to say that I know Islam is wrong? ???  I'm not about to cave in, I pray for their conversion and salvation, but that doesn't mean their prayer is pointing in the wrong direction.  (hmm... perhaps an ironic choice of words... )
Mohamadan prayer  is certainly not pointed at the true God the Triune God.
How can it be if they themselves deby him?
U insult the most Holy Trinity!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mpohamadanism sprang from the devil so to the devil mohamadan cantations and prayer (for the lack of a better term) go.
Can good spring from evil?
Either u admit mohamadanism was divinlyu revealed or u must admit it is demonic in origin,
It cannot be both.
(09-24-2009, 07:17 PM)anthony Wrote: [ -> ]Look Dk, I don't know what limitations you have. Clearly you are at a disadvantage when it comes to having to post on the forum. You're a good man, and you are even better for clinging to the Cross. But I resent being called a "liberal", as if I were unfaithful, or thought it a nice thing to be unfaithful to Christ and the Truth.

Muslims worship in a manner that is not ordained by God. Which is to say that they do not worship Him in His way. They, Muslims, do however worship, according to their minds and hearts, a Deity that has most of the characteristics that we understand through faith God truly has. These have been mentioned here, as well as in Dignitatis Humanae.

What I am not saying when I say that Muslims (and every decent monotheist as the very least) worship "the same God" is that they worship properly, and with every notion about God correctly. I don't think one has to be informed by complete Divine Revelation (free of all error), nor be given directives on how to worship by God Himself in order to be worshiping God. What I am saying, though, is that Muslims (and every decent monotheist at the very least) is ipso facto talking about God as revealed by Christ and His Church when they are talking about their God, though what they believe about Him and His will is wrong and not a salvific thing of itself: Without even knowing it.

Now, to my knowledge, I have not offended Christ because I have not said anything against the Faith. I am only expressing what I think to be true after having considered Revelation, and observing my Muslim friends and reading their holy book. And that which I am expressing only grants non-Catholics (in this case Muslims) the dignity that finds itself in any religious appetite or tendency.


Let's set this in reverse. Let's say that..

I am a Catholic worshiping God according to my understanding of Him. I am firmly convinced that Jesus is all that He said about Himself, and my inner and outer life is influence according to my faith in God as Trinity.

And yet...I am in error. Islam is truth, and my conception of God is woefully incorrect. (I am, though. considered a kind of brother by Muslims, still a kind of infidel for not submitting to God by Muhammad's words.) But, it is safe to say, that I am indeed still worshiping God (in Arabic: "Allah") though I do so in a way that on some level offends "Allah". I am not fulfilling "Allah's" commands because I am not living the life set out for me in the Holy Qu'ran, nor am I a member of the community of Muslims, who are "Allah's" first and true possession. However, I am still laboring in the Savior's vineyard, doing the will of the Father (hopefully).

Though I be in error, and though I predicate God wrongly, am I not still offering my prayers to The Holy One? Are my deeds done in love for God's sake not done in love for "Allah's" sake, though I misunderstand Him and His Truth? Though I reject Muhammad His Prophet, etc. etc. etc.-- Am I not still on some level quite ignorant of what is lacking in my situation, and still yet worshiping with my whole life God, who in fact revealed Himself most perfectly by Muhammad's pen at the whisper of an Angel?


None of this about me being Muslim is true or accurate. But I think this brings the point I'm trying to make, home. When I say that when a Muslim worships God, I mean that he is worshiping God. There is one God. Not two. And you can't just slip the Devil in here as if it were certain that all non-Christian prayers went to Satan, and those who addressed those prayers to Satan were his minions. THAT is a gap in sound thought, not what I've just said. Moreover, it is not even a vague notion in Tradition or Scripture that this is so. Its a mighty leap to extrapolate from the premises (a) God is a Trinity & (b) Muslims don't believe in God as Trinity, the conclusion that .: Muslims don't worship God, who happens to be a Trinity, btw.

On the contrary, Scripture does give something of an answer to this question (which, I don't think, can be answered exactly, since we're dealing with something more on the individual, personal and subjective level than on an empirical, scientific, or even purely theological level):

Acts 17 Wrote:22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.

The God of Islam is this unknown God. They do not really know God, because their religion portrays Him in a way that is not entirely true because of its error. I've heard the testimony of a Muslim convert who related quite warmly to this passage, and who told me that his love for Islam was really his love for Christ the Divine Savior, and the Trinity He is One with.

I don't know how I can make this much more intelligible, except by saying that all I that have said so far contradicts both the statements: "Muslims worship the Devil" and "The God represented in Islam is not the God as known by Christians, and that means that Muslims don't actually worship GOD."

(09-24-2009, 07:15 PM)Arun Wrote: [ -> ]I remember a ways back there was a large controversy somewhere in Indonesia, where the mohametans wanted to essentially "copyright" the word allah (meaning God), as in the vernacular of that area, Catholics also referred to God using the same word. Surely this shows that even they believe we worship different Gods.
We're not arguing about the fact that our conceptions of God are different. We're arguing about what is intuitive and commonsensical: that when a Muslim prays, that he is praying to our God with His attributes, and not to Allah according to their doctrine - nor are they praying to Satan, or to NOTHING, or to Side Show Bob.

Did you know that all that is meant when one says "Muslims worship a different God from Jews" one really means that one's vision is different from the others? This construct does not, in our culture, confirm two separate deities existing together, occupying the imagination or thought of one or both!

That's how I can say in one breath without being contradictory that Muslims worship the same God we do, and that they don't worship the same God we do.

Anthony, thank you for your post. Bear in mind some these other verses from Scripture which are important in understanding the answer to this question:

Quote:2 Thessalonians

10 And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:

Christ promised us that if we seek, we will find. If we knock (ask for his grace), he will open (give His grace to us). The Holy Ghost will not lead one astray nor allow one to feel confortable and "at peace" with false truth in another faith. Your method of approach is wrong (I believe) because it is that of relativity and contradicts the promise of Christ to us in Scripture concerning our quest for Truth:

Quote:Wisdom 3

9 They that trust in him, shall understand the truth: and they that are faithful in love shall rest in him: for grace and peace is to his elect.

Quote:Ecclesiasticus 2

13 For God is compassionate and merciful, and will forgive sins in the day of tribulation: and he is a protector to all that seek him in truth.

Quote: Ecclesiasticus 24

47 See ye that I have not laboured for myself only, but for all that seek out the truth.

Quote:Tobias 14

10 Hearken therefore, my children, to your father: serve the Lord in truth, and seek to do the things that please him:

Quote: Psalms 24

10 All the ways of the Lord are mercy and truth, to them that seek after his covenant and his testimonies.

Quote: Wisdom 6

24 Now what wisdom is, and what was her origin, I will declare: and I will not hide from you the mysteries of God, but will seek her out from the beginning of her birth, and bring the knowledge of her to light, and will not pass over the truth:

Quote: Deuteronomy 4

29 And when thou shalt seek there the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him: yet so, if thou seek him with all thy heart, and all the affliction of thy soul.

Quote: Jeremias 29

13 You shall seek me, and shall find me: when you shall seek me with all your heart.

Quote: 2 Paralipomenon 15

2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said to him: Hear ye me, Asa, and all Juda and Benjamin: The Lord is with you, because you have been with him. If you seek him, you shall find: but if you forsake him, he will forsake you.

Quote: Matthew 7

7 Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.

Quote:
2 Paralipomenon 15

4 And when in their distress they shall return to the Lord the God of Israel, and shall seek him, they shall find him.

Quote: Ecclesiasticus 32

18 He that feareth the Lord, will receive his discipline: and they that will seek him early, shall find a blessing.

Quote: Amos 5

4 For thus saith the Lord to the house of Israel: Seek ye me, and you shall live.

Quote: Psalms 68

33 Let the poor see and rejoice: seek ye God, and your soul shall live.

Quote: Luke 12

31 But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you.

Surely, we have God's Word that if we really want to find the Truth, he will not hide it from us. That does not mean that we will find it before death, but it does mean that God will not deceive one by permitting him to think that he has found truth in error. 

That is why I do not believe that Muslims who are of "good will" will remain Muslims. If they genuinely seek the Truth, God will not hide it from them for He will guide them away from their error by His grace. Whether or not they find this Truth is dependent upon whether or not they respond to His grace. If they do not, they are accountable for their error and are not truly of "good will". They could, however, be in the process of discerning Truth while still following the Islamic faith, but they will not feel at peace or at ease in this Faith because God will not lead one into error.
(09-24-2009, 07:17 PM)anthony Wrote: [ -> ]That's how I can say .....that they don't worship the same God we do.

Glad you finally see it our way....  :P

EDIT: wrong smiley first time round lol.
(09-25-2009, 06:01 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]That is why I do not believe that Muslims who are of "good will" will remain Muslims. If they genuinely seek the Truth, God will not hide it from them for He will guide them away from their error by His grace. Whether or not they find this Truth is dependent upon whether or not they respond to His grace. If they do not, they are accountable for their error and are not truly of "good will". They could, however, be in the process of discerning Truth while still following the Islamic faith, but they will not feel at peace or at ease in this Faith because God will not lead one into error.
Hey, thanks for replying.

I don't think I disagree with you, mostly. I just don't think that if one is open, he will necessarily convert before the hour of death. Experience has shown us all that however wonderful God is, his contribution to the salvation of men is a little more subtle than the landslide-of-fondue-chocolate-grace theory you seem to be advocating with your scripture quotations.
(09-25-2009, 01:12 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]Can good spring from evil?
Either u admit mohamadanism was divinlyu revealed or u must admit it is demonic in origin,
It cannot be both
It was based on some elements of Revelation, and the rest was invented by man.

Its not a discernible fact that Satan had anything to do with it! (Which is not to say he isn't glad Islam is ordered against the Catholic Faith to a certain degree.) It is not a discernible fact that the Devil has to do with any religion, unless it is particularly gruesome in its rituals. In which case I would be happy with just saying that the culture or people involved just happen to be deranged.

Sorry bro, but you have some issues.
(09-26-2009, 12:11 AM)anthony Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think I disagree with you, mostly. I just don't think that if one is open, he will necessarily convert before the hour of death. Experience has shown us all that however wonderful God is, his contribution to the salvation of men is a little more subtle than the landslide-of-fondue-chocolate-grace theory you seem to be advocating with your scripture quotations.

mmm... chocolate...

God is so subtle it isn't even funny.

For instance, physics has run into a fundamental indeterminism in the quantum theory (surely you've all noticed), but it's important to point out that there are still predictable statistics --- remote correlations in particular --- that are so reliably observed, one has to suspect conspiracy.  If (and I'm certainly not going to decide) this is the gap that God works through, then He also seems quite intent on a very precise and strange sort of microscopic order, yet still bringing about a dizzying wealth of cosmic structure and variety (not to mention us poor sinners in the middle-distance) :)
I have some issues, that's for sure and its with your  BS..
Satan is the father of lies. Mohamadanosm is a lie, unless yur arguing its true. R u? Then what is it?. Is mohamadanism true or is false? If its a lie  then it has everything to do with the devil.yes we can be certain of it.
Hope that's simple enough for u.
Sip sip
Yeah that's right!!
(09-26-2009, 12:34 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]I have some issues, that's for sure and its with your  BS..
Satan is the father of lies. Mohamadanosm is a lie, unless yur arguing its true. R u? Then what is it?. Is mohamadanism true or is false? If its a lie  then it has everything to do with the devil.yes we can be certain of it.
Hope that's simple enough for u.
Sip sip
Yeah that's right!!
Oh its simple enough for me. Simple enough for me to know that you're totally missing the point of the discussion.
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