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(09-21-2009, 08:25 AM)elizabee Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-21-2009, 06:28 AM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]GOD is a trinity. The father, son and hly ghost. We worship the trinity.
In no way shape or form do mohamadans worship a trinity.
Hence they do not worship God. They worship the voice and whispers of satan

So do you think David didn't worship God? If not, why is it legitimate for us to use the psalms in our liturgy? Wouldn't they then be poems to "the voice and whispers of Satan"? Or did David know that God was a Trinity and just never tell anybody? You can't have it both ways.

The difference is that the truth of the Trinity was not explicitly revealed to David, not that he denied it. The Muslims deny the existence of the Trinity and, to them, it is "heresy" and "idolatry".
(09-22-2009, 07:57 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]NO!! Mphamadans do not worship the trinity priod. They don't even claim to and the thought of worshiping the Holy Trinity is repulsive to them. This makes sense sonce the religion spewed from satan.
We do not worship the same God.

Yes, I have discussed this with a Muslim coworker of mine with whom I debate every once and a while. According to him, Islam condemns the idea of the Trinity. Consider what the Quran itself has to say which completely contradicts that which is from the Triune God:


Quote:In the book of Proverbs the God that they say they obey says, “all those who love death hate me.” Just a interesting observation, how do the leaders get his followers to do what he will not.

Surah 2:256 “Let there be no compulsion in Religion.” This would be a rational position if practiced as a standard, however Muslims disallow the Bible (as well as other books of religion) in their countries and do not give people a choice. They do not want to engage in dialogue or allow freedom of choice when they are in control. To present the Bibles Gospel is tantamount to aggression, so one is labeled an infidel, and the use of force can be used to restrain him. The rest of this verse says “Truth stands out Clear from Error: whoever Rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped, the most trustworthy Hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth And knoweth all things.” This verse seems to imply that those who embrace Islam willingly are accepted.

Why is it so hard for Muslim to become a Christian or join with another religion? Mohammed said, “Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57) This command is practiced in almost all Islamic Fundamentalist countries today.

While the Qur’an says not to begin with hostilities, and Allah does not love the aggressor, it is not acceptable when Islam is refused. For it teaches not to turn away and bless but “the one who attacks you, you attack him in like manner...whoso defendeth himself after he hath suffered wrong, there is no way (blame) against them.”

Sura 26:227 “Except those who believe, work righteousness, engage much in the remembrance of God, and defend themselves only after they are unjustly attacked. And soon will the unjust assailants know what vicissitudes their affairs will take!”

They present certain verses and ignore others verses that have quite a different tone such as 3:85 “Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).

Muslim’s make every effort to suppress any who claim to follow the Bible. They say they believe the Bible but will not allow the Bible to be taught to Muslims. They cannot allow anyone who believes the Bible the right to declare their belief as they do. Their  persecution of Bible believers shows their lack of trust in their own religion to show any truth. If they trust the power of the Qur'an, why would they rely on physical force and intimidation. However they will say, “Therefore grant a delay to the Unbelievers: Give respite to them gently (for awhile).” Sura 86:17

“And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, illtreated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help.” [Soorah an-Nisaa'4:75]

What I have seen on the news is that we cannot understand the Quran, it's in Arabic and we (those who do not believe) are considered illiterate, we are feeble in spiritual understanding. So words that we read in English do not mean the same in Arabic. Lets examine this argument: The translation is by Muslim scholars who speak Arabic and know the meaning, yet for some reason they don’t translate it accurately in the English! One only needs to read the Hadiths to know what is meant by the verses.

Another translation of the preceding verse is “Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.”

Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).

They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islamic calendar). Say, “fighting therein is a great (transgression) but a greater (transgression) with Allah is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allah, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islamic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever.” (Soorah an-Nisaa 4:75)

The Jews are to be eliminated

Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.” This friendship makes any Muslim a enemy of their own and deserving of the same fate as the unbeliever. This is because God does not guide an unjust people.

There is a consistency in the statements in Qur'an about the  Jews, Christians, unbelievers, infidels, polytheists, only a few statements are favorable. But the direct approach of whom Mohammed meant is clear from his theme of elimination and destiny for punishment.

Sura3 3:64: “Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers (whom he defined as Christians in the 5th surah “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.) and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire to dwell in forever. No protector will they find, nor savior. That Day their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire. They will say: ‘Woe to us! We should have obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!’ ‘Our Lord! Give them double torment and  curse them with a very great Curse!’”

What does The true God say about cursing his people? Read Gen.12:3

Sura72:15 “The disbelievers are the firewood of hell.”

“What, do you desire to guide him whom God has led astray? Whom God leads astray, thou wilt not find for him a way [of salvation]. They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as a friend or helper. (Arberry, Interpreted p.113)

Hadith, the body of traditions relating to Mohammed and now supplemental to the Koran: He (Abu Hurayah) reported the messenger of Allah as saying: The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say, O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him. The only exception will be the box-thorn for it is one of the trees of the Jews. (Sahih of Muslim, quoted by Israel and the Prophecies of Al Quran by Ali Akbar, Bismi Publishers 1992, p.44)

Of the Unbelievers:  Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Sura  9:5)

4:101 “When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.” 4:102 “For the Unbelievers, Allah has prepared a humiliating punishment.”

8:19 “(O Unbelievers!) if ye prayed for victory and judgment, now hath the judgment come to you: if ye desist (from wrong), it will be best for you: if ye return (to the attack), so shall We. Not the least good will your forces be to you even if they (were multiplied: for verily God is with those who believe!”

8:59-60 “Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of God and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of God, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.”
Another translation makes this plain - “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and  weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

9.123 “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you”

9.73 “O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.”

Surah 2, Contains the subject of war numerous times (Jihad). It is approved to be the solution to aggression when necessary. The following paragraphs are out of the Qur’an. (The Qur’an was written in Arabic, but translated in English by those who are Muslim and speak Arabic.)

“War is prescribed to you: but from this ye are averse.” (Sura 2:212).

“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)

Sura 2:187-189 “And kill them wherever ye shall find them, and eject them from whatever place they have ejected you; for civil discord is worse than carnage: yet attack them not at the sacred Mosque, unless they attack you therein; but if they attack you, slay them. Such the reward of the infidels...Fight therefore against them until there be no more civil discord, and the only worship be that of God: but if they desist, then let there be no hostility, save against the wicked.”

2:190-292 “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out: For tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, Slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.”

2:193 “And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and let there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.”

2:216 “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not. 217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: “Fighting therein is a grave (offense); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein.”

2:244 “Then fight in the cause of God, and know that God heareth and knoweth all things. 245 Who is he that will loan to God a beautiful loan, which God will double unto his credit and multiply many times? It is God that giveth (you) want or plenty, and to Him shall be your return.”

Many of these quotes should be self-evident what the meaning is. Of course they will be some that say that what they mean is not what they read like. Muslim clerics and their apologists are saying  “the command to kill non-Muslims is not for today” it was only for a certain time. Where in the Qur’an does it say this? It does not say or teach  the commands to kill the “infidels”, “unbelievers” “Jews” and “Christians” was only for a previous time. ” Nowhere.  why should we accept this rhetoric? There is proof in the Qur'an that it is actually to continue and increase.

No doubt I heard Allah's messenger saying, “During the last days there will appear some young foolish people, who will say the best words, but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will leave the faith) and will go out from their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.” (Bukhari volume 9, no.64)

One of their Hadiths states about their own: Narrated Ikrima: The statement of Allah’s Apostle (Muhammad), “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.”  (Hadith 9:45; 84.2.57.)

Sura 9:29-33 “Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled.”

Sura 8:15  “O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers preparing for battle do not turn your backs to them. [Anyone who does] shall incur the wrath of God, and Hell shall be his home,- an evil dwelling (indeed)!”

Sura 8:57 “So if you gain the mastery over them in war, punish them severely in order to disperse those who are behind them, so that they may learn a lesson.”

Sura 8:65 “O Messenger! Rouse the Believers among you to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish two thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are people without understanding.” In other words those who believe not in Allah are not equal to those who do.”

Sura 8:67 “It is not fitting for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he has made a great slaughter in the land.”

Sura 6:157 “Or lest ye should say: "If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they." Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth God's signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.” So if you are not a Muslim, how do you think this affects you.

Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”

“Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah. Whatever you spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid to you and you shall not be treated unjustly.”

“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).

Sura 9:39  “If you do not fight, He will punish you severely, and put others in your place”

9:52 “…Allah will send His punishment from Himself or by our hands.”

The Qur’an teaches: Allah has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home . . . The unbelievers are your sworn enemies . . . Seek out your enemies relentlessly . . . . You shall not plead for traitors . . . Allah does not love the treacherous or the sinful. (Dawood, Koran, pp. 367-68.)

“. . . kill the pagans wherever you may find them . . .”

Sura 4:74: “Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of Allah, - whether he is slain or gets victory - soon shall We give him a reward of great value.”

Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

Sura 9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breasts of the Believers.” Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and God will punish, (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame. (Surah 9:14 at-Taubah 9:14)

Sura 9:78-83 “Know they not that God doth know their secret (thoughts) and their secret counsels, and that God knoweth well all things unseen? Those who slander such of the believers as give themselves freely to (deeds of) charity, as well as such as can find nothing to give except the fruits of their labor, and throw ridicule on them, God will throw back their ridicule on them: and they shall have a grievous penalty. 80 Whether thou ask for their forgiveness or not, (their sin is unforgivable): if thou ask seventy times for their forgiveness, God will not forgive them: because they have rejected God and His apostle; and God guideth not those who are perversely rebellious. Those who were left behind (in the Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the apostle of God: they hated to strive and fight, with their goods and their persons, in the cause of God: they said, “Go not forth in the heat. Say, “The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat.” If only they could understand! Let them laugh a little: much will they weep: a recompense for the (evil) that they do. If, then, God bring thee back to any of them, and they ask thy permission to come out (with thee), say: “Never shall ye come out with me, nor fight an enemy with me: for ye preferred to sit inactive on the first occasion: then sit ye (now) with those who lag behind.”

Sura  4:168: “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will  not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”

Sura 9:123: “Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbours, and let them find you rigorous: and know that God is with those who fear him.” Hey neighbor how do you feel about this?

Infidels are those who worship any other but Allah. Yet I have heard Muslims claim Allah is the same God of the Old Testament. If so why are not the Jews and Christians accepted? The answer is clear, because they reject their apostle.

Sura 9:29-33: “Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled. The Jews say, 'Ezra (Ozair) is a son of God'; and the Christians say, 'The Messiah is a son of God'. Such the sayings in their mouths! They resemble the sayings of the Infidels of old! God do battle with them! How are they misguided!..He it is who hath sent His Apostle with the Guidance and a religion of the truth, that He may make it victorious over every other religion, albeit they who assign partners to God be averse from it.”

Mohammed said: “No Muslim should be killed for killing a Kafir (infidel).”(Hadith vol. 9:50)  This means a non- Muslim.

Sura 15:66: “And We made known this decree to him, that the last remnants of those (sinners) should be cut off by the morning.”

Instead of conversion by force, physically or otherwise, Christ said that His disciples did not fight because His kingdom was not of this world (John 18:36). Those who fight love this present world and the Bible says the love of the Father is not in them. Indeed, He told His disciples, “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you” (Mt 5:44). I have nothing similar to this in the Qur'an yet it the teachings of Christ are supposed to be in it.

What about peace treaties and appeasement with Islamic forces?

In the  Qur’an,  Sura 8:58: “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty),  retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah).  Surely they cannot escape.”

Sura 9:3: “Allah is not bound by any contract  or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle.”

4:90 “For those who join a group between you and whom there is a treaty, or (those who become) weary of fighting you, had Allah had willed, He could have given
them power over you, and they would have fought you. Therefore if they withdraw and wage not war, and send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah has not given you a way (to war) against them.”  [The purpose of terror is to cause people to become  so “weary of fighting” they surrender.]

What does this mean? In another translation 4:90 “If they turn back from Islam, becoming renegades, seize them and kill them wherever you find them.”

Sura 22:18 “Seest thou not that to God bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as God shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour: for God carries out all that He wills.v:19 These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.v:20 With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. v:21 In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. v:22 Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!”

Sura 47:4 “Therefore, when you meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; at length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them… He lets you fight in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah, - He will never let their deeds be lost.” Another English translation says, “When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter among them, and of the rest make fast the fetters.”

Sura 59:2 “It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes at the first gathering of the forces. Little did you think that they would get out: and they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah! But the wrath of Allah came to them from quarters from which they had little expected it, and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their own dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers.”

Sura 59:4,5 “That is because they resisted Allah and His Messenger: and if any one resists Allah, verily Allah is severe in punishment. Whether you cut down O you Muslims the tender palm-trees, or if you left them standing on their roots, it was by leave of Allah, and in order that He might cover with shame the rebellious transgressors.”

Sura 59:14 “They will not fight you even together, except in fortified townships, or from behind walls. Strong is their fighting spirit amongst themselves: you would think they are united, but their hearts are divided: that is because they are a people devoid of wisdom.”

Sura 61:4 “Verily God loveth those who, as though they were a solid wall, do battle for his cause in serried lines!”

Surah 61 encourages the Muslims to give their wealth for their cause, and if necessary their lives for the cause of Islam. It is passages like this that advocate war. Sura 61:9-11 “Fain would they put out the light of God with their mouths! but though the Infidels hate it, God will perfect his light. He it is who sent his apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that, though they hate it who join other gods with God, He may make it victorious over every other religion.” O ye who believe! shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in God and His Apostle, and that ye strive (Jihad) (your utmost) in the Cause of God, with your property and your persons: that will be best for you, if ye but knew!

Sura 69:44-48 “And if the apostle were to invent any sayings in Our name, We should certainly seize him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart: Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath). But verily this is a Message for the God-fearing.”

Sura 66:9: “O Prophet! make war on the infidels and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their abode! and wretched the passage to it!” Another translation says, “Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate”

Sura 8:39-40: “Say to the infidels: If they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven them; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's.” Another translation is 8.39 “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.”

Sura 9:5: “And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful.”

This is but a small sampling of the hatred and violence that is included in this book that can be used by those of this religion. This book is the  foundation upon which this religion is founded. This begins to explain the motivation and the action we see by those who put these sayings into practice. Islam is not based on the individual opinion of Muslims, but the Qur’an. So why is it I’m able to find what others say is not there?

What are there expectations? Do they want to live in peace with others and allow people the freedom to choose? There are some who believe in peace and there are numerous verses that speak of not killing or harming others, even animals. But Militant / fundamentalist Islam's goal, is able to use passages in the Qur’an for their goal of bringing all mankind into submission (“Islam”). And if not then the other option is to kill all “infidels”, unbelievers if necessary (these are the unbelievers in Allah and Muhammad his prophet, not unbelievers in God (Sura 2:190-192;4:76; 5:33; 9:5, 29,41; 47:4).

Islam in obedience to the Qur’an is the driving force for most of the terrorism today we are seeing today. If you don't believe this, check who the majority of people are that are doing the terrorist acts throughout the world.

The truth is that the only sure way to paradise for a Muslim, to die in a Jihad. Sura 9:111 “God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? Then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.” “And if you are slain, or die in the way of Allah, forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass.” (Surah 3:157 Al-Imran 3:157)

Contrary to other religions that offer heaven by good works and Christianity that offers it for free to those who believe and follow Jesus Christ, a obedient Muslim can not be sure of his hereafter without it. Muslims are offered a palace; in it are 72 mansions with 72 homes with 72 sheets on 72 beds with 72 virgins that never lose their virginity. Mohammed said, “The person who participates in (Holy Battles) in Allah's cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostle, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to paradise (if he is killed).” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:35.) “They [true believers] will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches” (Sura 37:48). This gives us insight into their denial of this life and being rewarded in the next. The promise of heaven to those who die in battle for the cause of Allah is quite a promise.

Sura 48:27-28 “Truly did God fulfil the vision for His Apostle: ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque, if God wills, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory. It is He Who has sent His Apostle with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is God for a Witness.” (Maulama Mohammed Ali 1917 translation says of this verse-- this prophecy of the prevalence of Islam over all other religions, is a prophecy which extends into the distant future while Arabia saw its fulfillment in the lifetime of the holy prophet the prevalence of Islam does not however mean the political supremacy of it its adherents at all times. Nor does the prophecy signify that other religions would at any time entirely disappear. It only indicates that the superiority of the religion of Islam over all other religions will at last be established. And Islam will be the religion of the majority of the nations of the earth. No other Scripture prophesies the triumph of the religion it preaches in unmistakable terms.)

These "doctrines" are completely contrary to the teachings of the Trinity. They are certainly from a different entity.

I am baffled that this is being disputed on a traditional Catholic forum.
I don't see why it's so baffling.
I am in no way denying that Islam is a false religion. The Koran is not inspired and contains falsehood. We should not reverence Mohammed, but pray for his soul.
However, God is everywhere and knows everything, He is one and loves each human person. Do you really think he doesn't know each individual struggling to be close to Him and love them and extend His help to them continually? To say that Muslims worship a pagan moon god is totally unbecoming, it is incorrect, offensive, and there are few quicker ways to turn Muslims off from wanting to be Catholics. It makes Muslims feel the same way Catholics do to hear Jewish people say "but Christians believe in three Gods!": slightly pitying, partly charitable, and partly puzzled and exasperated. Of course we don't and of course they don't.
Muslims have a very similar concept of God in His substance - He is One, perfect, omnipotent, transcendent, benevolent, omniscient... when they hear about the doctrine of the Trinity, within their (erroneous) worldview, the source/speaker has been "proven" to be incorrect, so it isn't even considered. If Muslims grow up in the Western world strongly believing, and even apparently having reason to believe, that the Catholic Church is wrong, do you think they are getting a fair chance at accepting the doctrine when it comes to them? I think probably not. It is ultimately up to God and the best we can do is pray and set an excellent example.
(09-22-2009, 09:15 PM)elizabee Wrote: [ -> ]Muslims have a very similar concept of God in His substance - He is One, perfect, omnipotent, transcendent, benevolent, omniscient... when they hear about the doctrine of the Trinity, within their (erroneous) worldview, the source/speaker has been "proven" to be incorrect, so it isn't even considered. If Muslims grow up in the Western world strongly believing, and even apparently having reason to believe, that the Catholic Church is wrong, do you think they are getting a fair chance at accepting the doctrine when it comes to them? I think probably not. It is ultimately up to God and the best we can do is pray and set an excellent example.

But regardless of how the message comes across, the fact remains that Catholics and Muslims do not worship the same God and it does only harm to all to imply - or worse yet - outright say, that we do.

Simply put, what Muslims are absolutely guilty of is breaking the first "and greatest" commandment - as such, they worship the devil - period.

(09-22-2009, 09:49 PM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-22-2009, 09:15 PM)elizabee Wrote: [ -> ]Muslims have a very similar concept of God in His substance - He is One, perfect, omnipotent, transcendent, benevolent, omniscient... when they hear about the doctrine of the Trinity, within their (erroneous) worldview, the source/speaker has been "proven" to be incorrect, so it isn't even considered. If Muslims grow up in the Western world strongly believing, and even apparently having reason to believe, that the Catholic Church is wrong, do you think they are getting a fair chance at accepting the doctrine when it comes to them? I think probably not. It is ultimately up to God and the best we can do is pray and set an excellent example.

But regardless of how the message comes across, the fact remains that Catholics and Muslims do not worship the same God and it does only harm to all to imply - or worse yet - outright say, that we do.

Simply put, what Muslims are absolutely guilty of is breaking the first "and greatest" commandment - as such, they worship the devil - period.

Show me where the Church says so. I'd be happy to be corrected.
(09-22-2009, 09:55 PM)elizabee Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-22-2009, 09:49 PM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-22-2009, 09:15 PM)elizabee Wrote: [ -> ]Muslims have a very similar concept of God in His substance - He is One, perfect, omnipotent, transcendent, benevolent, omniscient... when they hear about the doctrine of the Trinity, within their (erroneous) worldview, the source/speaker has been "proven" to be incorrect, so it isn't even considered. If Muslims grow up in the Western world strongly believing, and even apparently having reason to believe, that the Catholic Church is wrong, do you think they are getting a fair chance at accepting the doctrine when it comes to them? I think probably not. It is ultimately up to God and the best we can do is pray and set an excellent example.

But regardless of how the message comes across, the fact remains that Catholics and Muslims do not worship the same God and it does only harm to all to imply - or worse yet - outright say, that we do.

Simply put, what Muslims are absolutely guilty of is breaking the first "and greatest" commandment - as such, they worship the devil - period.

Show me where the Church says so. I'd be happy to be corrected.

But you just said it when you said that Muslims have a very similar concept of God.

What is a "similar concept" of God?

But one teaching is:

Council of Florence, Bull Cantate Domino, 1441: "The most Holy Roman Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."
That speaks specifically of individual's salvation within those categories but does not address the question of the "same God"

To me it is an impossibility for Mohammedans to worship a different God since there are no other gods but God.

Also they do not deny the God of Israel but rather deny his incarnation hence they are heretics not much different from the Aryans and the Gnostics.

Vatican II is not dogma as it does not establish anything that the Church has not already taught.
(09-22-2009, 09:05 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]These "doctrines" are completely contrary to the teachings of the Trinity. They are certainly from a different entity.

I am baffled that this is being disputed on a traditional Catholic forum.

I'm with you.
Baffled is the right word.
(09-22-2009, 10:17 PM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-22-2009, 09:05 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]These "doctrines" are completely contrary to the teachings of the Trinity. They are certainly from a different entity.

I am baffled that this is being disputed on a traditional Catholic forum.

I'm with you.
Baffled is the right word.

I really hope that others don't interpret my silence the wrong way, but I don't know how to say all the things that need to be said. I have chosen to digress for now until my mind quiets down.
(09-20-2009, 10:03 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]WE DO NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We do and we don't. Its more complicated than that.
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