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Hk
Your post reaks of religious indefrentism!
(09-23-2009, 07:00 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-23-2009, 09:37 AM)Mhoram Wrote: [ -> ]If denying certain aspects of God means that you aren't worshiping God at all, that raises an interesting question: how about Christians who don't believe in the full divinity of Christ, or some other Church teaching about the nature of God?  Are they also worshiping demons when they pray the Our Father?

I believe the simple answer is to require everyone to pass a written exam on the Athanasian Creed before they can pray. It's possible that most childrens' prayers are blasphemous to some extent, because they can't understand the Trinity. They than go to Satan instead, just as prayers by Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Protestants, etc. do.

Though the logical conclusion to all this is that Satan has exponentially more worshippers and followers than God, which I think raises some questions about how powerful God really is.

Mhoram and HK, it's good to see that you guys get the point! :)

The problem is that, confronted with this issue, many rad-trads resort to a hyper-descriptivist theory of reference that is not only epistemologically incoherent, but, applied consistently to ALL statements about the world, would end in batshit subjectivism. The fact remains that, as the intentional object of Islamic worship, the historical God of Abraham is sufficient in itself to anchor reference, and to render their remaining beliefs, no matter how egregious or false, false beliefs about the One True God; it also makes Muslims guilty of blasphemy, something impossible in the "different God" scenario. 
(09-23-2009, 07:38 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-22-2009, 09:05 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, I have discussed this with a Muslim coworker of mine with whom I debate every once and a while. According to him, Islam condemns the idea of the Trinity. Consider what the Quran itself has to say which completely contradicts that which is from the Triune God:

These "doctrines" are completely contrary to the teachings of the Trinity. They are certainly from a different entity.

I am baffled that this is being disputed on a traditional Catholic forum.

I have a Muslim friend of Nigerian ancestry whose grandfathe made the hadj and stayed in Saudi. One day he asked me what Christians believe. I could think of nothing better than to recite the Nicene Creed. When I got to 'And in one Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, the only-begotten, born of the Father before all ages. Light of light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made',  if he could have turned white with horror he would have. Had we been in Saudi, friend or not, I'm sure he would have denounced me to the religious police!

He managed, in his horror at my 'blasphemy', to stammer, 'Only Catholics believe that, right?' I pointed out that while some liberal prots no longer believe it, this was the doctrine of all Christians for around 1800 years. He was horrified. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he doesn't think that he worships the same God I do and I've never met any Muslim who understands his faith who would accept the liberal bullsh*t being argued for on this forum.

Ok, maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe Vatican II is right. Maybe I should stick to the womens' forum rather than scandalize others with my neo-Catholic ways.  Thanks for the debate, everybody, it was interesting.
Rad trad? Oh u mean CATHOLIC!
Just because the mphamadan claim to worship the god of abraham doesn't make it so.
The mohamadan god is so far removed and different from God because mohamadanism is a lie. A fasle religion cannot worship the true triune GOD.
I'm pretty disguted at some posters on this thread.
(09-23-2009, 07:38 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-22-2009, 09:05 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, I have discussed this with a Muslim coworker of mine with whom I debate every once and a while. According to him, Islam condemns the idea of the Trinity. Consider what the Quran itself has to say which completely contradicts that which is from the Triune God:

These "doctrines" are completely contrary to the teachings of the Trinity. They are certainly from a different entity.

I am baffled that this is being disputed on a traditional Catholic forum.

I have a Muslim friend of Nigerian ancestry whose grandfathe made the hadj and stayed in Saudi. One day he asked me what Christians believe. I could think of nothing better than to recite the Nicene Creed. When I got to 'And in one Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, the only-begotten, born of the Father before all ages. Light of light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made',  if he could have turned white with horror he would have. Had we been in Saudi, friend or not, I'm sure he would have denounced me to the religious police!

He managed, in his horror at my 'blasphemy', to stammer, 'Only Catholics believe that, right?' I pointed out that while some liberal prots no longer believe it, this was the doctrine of all Christians for around 1800 years. He was horrified. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he doesn't think that he worships the same God I do and I've never met any Muslim who understands his faith who would accept the liberal bullsh*t being argued for on this forum.

Jovan, thank you for your post. I don't either.
Fashionably late.

Well, from the reading I've done recently about this, what I can make out is that the Mohams think they worship the one true God,  BUT The tenets of their Faith are so foreign and at odds with the True religion, and the origin of the idea of Allah so murky and from local gods of the Arab tribes that is is clear that at any meaningful level that Mohams do not worship the True God and therefore do not worship the same God that we do (therefore DO NOT worship God at all!).


This said...If you take what they say at face value, a moham believes that he is worshiping the Creator, but is in fact worshiping a caricature of the creator created by the Devil


Read for yourself...it is a tough subject to make it through, especially if you have been bying the "We all worship the same God" crap that we've been being feed about Christianity, Jews, and Mohams  (often called, people of the book.)

Allah...a tribal god that took precedence among others...
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01316a.htm

General reference:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08190a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10424a.htm

This is from an SSPX preist
writen posibly before ordination...don't know...ordained in 2005 as far as I can tell.
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apol...orship.htm


Belloc on it

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apol...nislam.htm
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apol...ohamet.htm

THe moham lovers on this board would do well to take these words to heart befor the moham cut their throats as they (FE moham lovers) praise the moham to the sky for their "virtues"

Quote:We no longer regarded Islam as a rival to our own culture. We thought of its religion as a sort of fossilised thing about which we need not trouble. That was almost certainly a mistake. We shall almost certainly have to reckon with Islam in the near future. Perhaps if we lose our Faith it will rise.

For after this subjugation of the Islamic culture by the nominally Christian had already been achieved, the political conquerors of that culture began to notice two disquieting features about it. The first was that its spiritual foundation proved immovable; the second that its area of occupation did not recede, but on the contrary slowly expanded.

Few Conversions

Islam would not look at any Christian missionary effort. The so-called Christian governments, in contact with it, it spiritually

despised. The ardent and sincere Christian missionaries were received usually with courtesy, sometimes with fierce attack, but were never allowed to affect Islam. I think it true to say that Islam is the only spiritual force on earth which Catholicism has found an impregnable fortress. Its votaries are the one religious body conversions from which are insignificant.

This granite permanence is a most striking thing, and worthy of serious consideration by all those who meditate on the spiritual, and, consequently, the social, future of the world.


Islam delnda est
(09-23-2009, 08:03 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]Hk
Your post reaks of religious indefrentism!

How so? I just argued that only a very small percentage of the human race worship God, and the rest worship Satan.
As in the question of EENS and what it really means, I think it'll be useful to consider what the moral upshot is for regular Catholic folk such as I hope to be.

Clearly, we should pray for the conversion of everyone, and in particular for the delivery from error of all muslims everywhere.  And, since Francis of Assisi had some experience with them, we might well follow his advice to "preach the Gospel always and, when necessary, use words."

I suppose when asked what we believe, jovan's tactic is as good as any.  I've never had the task of answering this question so I might well go completely wrong, otherwise; still, I think it might be more expedient to start with "God is Love", and "God does not destroy", because these are the first places where a muslim will differ with us.  Also assert that God is the Creator, because there he will agree with us, and a little agreement will help a lot.  It won't help to start with the Trinity because the koran discourages distinguishing the notion of divine person and the notion of godhead.

I *think* it'll be easier to start considering the inner-life of God once you've communicated that God is Love, and to proceed thence to the Trinity, but it'll be tricky.

I really do think we should take a muslim at his word when he says he worships the Creator, because I can't believe that God the Creator would refuse worship under that title.

I also think we should take a muslim at his word when he says he worships the Destroyer, because Satan is surely as greedy as God is a jealous god --- and so I suppose we ought to understand that a muslim isn't truly a monotheist, even though it is under the cloak of a monotheism that Mohamed's angel denies the trinity and Jesus' divinity.

Thoughts, folks?  I'd love to be corrected!
I know a pagan who worships a creator.
Same god?
Hindus have a creator
Same god?
How about sheiks? Bahia? Japanaese shinto has a creator
Same God?
This is indefrentism.
NO!! We should not take satan at his word. The Trinity is not a small matter tp be brushed aside for convenience. That is a grave sin! This thread isn't about the best way to convert mohamadans. Its about some trad catholics holding to a sinfull position regarding a false religion and a false God. God is love. True he is also a TRINITY!
No small matter!!
OK, DK, so I'm straying off-topic.  I hope you agree that it's a scandal for Catholics to teach error whether they prefix themselves "trad" or not?

But I wrote no indiferentism; the Truth is One, and there is One True Religion revealed by God, and I hope for everyone to believe it, in God's good time.

I'd take issue with whether the hindu sects have one creator; in any case, they pay far too much homage to long chains of anthropomorphised intermediaries to be monotheist, anyways.  About shinto I know nothing --- I thought the Buddhisms were all about escaping creation, anyways, so they can't think creation a *good* thing.  The bahia I can't actually distinguish from new-style unitarians, or pantheists, so I can't call their adorand a creator, because I don't know if it's really first, whether they believe it's one thing or in any way distinct from its creation.

Islam I have a difficult time sifting through.  There are obviously-deliberate parallels and wholesale borrowings from revelation, and obviously-wrong things; but finding a way to cut between them *from inside islam* is extremely difficult.  I'd say *that* is why it's a dangerous religion: more than its being false, more than having bred ten thousand terrorists, it's much too similar to the truth.  (Of course, over there they say that the other way around, so we'll gather their first ire, too.)  The internal divisions and tribal fighting and ten thousand terrorists are symptomatic, but the problem is communicating where it starts going wrong.

I'm not denying that God is three Persons; all I said was that it's not a useful place to start talking to a muslim.  I'm not "brushing aside" anything, I'm saying "new wine will break old wineskins".  The whole point of waiting to talk about that is that it IS a BIG Matter.

And lastly, I never said "take Satan at his word", your suggestion that I did is a vile calumny, and I don't know how you propose to defend it --- all I've written here is quite visible to everyone!
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