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(09-24-2009, 07:17 PM)anthony Wrote: [ -> ]Muslims worship in a manner that is not ordained by God. Which is to say that they do not worship Him in His way. They, Muslims, do however worship, according to their minds and hearts, a Deity that has most of the characteristics that we understand through faith God truly has. These have been mentioned here, as well as in Dignitatis Humanae.

Pope Pius IX condemned this in his syllabus of errors the following false notions:

"Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true."

"Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation and arrive at eternal salvation."
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm

(09-24-2009, 07:17 PM)anthony Wrote: [ -> ]Now, to my knowledge, I have not offended Christ because I have not said anything against the Faith. I am only expressing what I think to be true after having considered Revelation, and observing my Muslim friends and reading their holy book. And that which I am expressing only grants non-Catholics (in this case Muslims) the dignity that finds itself in any religious appetite or tendency.

Since, as shown above, whoever they worship is in vain, consider Exodus 20:7 -  Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord his God in vain.

(09-24-2009, 09:26 PM)Hotspurcantresistposting Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2009, 09:22 PM)Arun Wrote: [ -> ]why are so many of you so eager to defend islam?
I'm sorry, but I just wanted to check the that the quoted statement is not pulled out of nowhere, dipstick.

well thanks for calling me that, but i wasn't actually specifically referring to you. you posted just as i was about to, and thus your post ended up directly before mine. i suppose i should have been more specific about who i was referring to, but as i thought it would appear directly under anthony's post, i felt it unneccesary.
(09-24-2009, 09:36 PM)Arun Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2009, 09:26 PM)Hotspurcantresistposting Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2009, 09:22 PM)Arun Wrote: [ -> ]why are so many of you so eager to defend islam?
I'm sorry, but I just wanted to check the that the quoted statement is not pulled out of nowhere, dipstick.

well thanks for calling me that, but i wasn't actually specifically referring to you. you posted just as i was about to, and thus your post ended up directly before mine. i suppose i should have been more specific about who i was referring to, but as i thought it would appear directly under anthony's post, i felt it unneccesary.
My apologies.
(09-24-2009, 09:32 PM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2009, 07:17 PM)anthony Wrote: [ -> ]Muslims worship in a manner that is not ordained by God. Which is to say that they do not worship Him in His way. They, Muslims, do however worship, according to their minds and hearts, a Deity that has most of the characteristics that we understand through faith God truly has. These have been mentioned here, as well as in Dignitatis Humanae.

Pope Pius IX condemned this in his syllabus of errors the following false notions:

"Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true."

"Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation and arrive at eternal salvation."
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm

(09-24-2009, 07:17 PM)anthony Wrote: [ -> ]Now, to my knowledge, I have not offended Christ because I have not said anything against the Faith. I am only expressing what I think to be true after having considered Revelation, and observing my Muslim friends and reading their holy book. And that which I am expressing only grants non-Catholics (in this case Muslims) the dignity that finds itself in any religious appetite or tendency.

Since, as shown above, whoever they worship is in vain, consider Exodus 20:7 -  Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord his God in vain.
Please, do tell where "people can chose to worship in any way they want" is the subject of anthony's first sentence or that their prayers were/are acceptable.
(09-24-2009, 09:52 PM)Hotspurcantresistposting Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2009, 09:32 PM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2009, 07:17 PM)anthony Wrote: [ -> ]Muslims worship in a manner that is not ordained by God. Which is to say that they do not worship Him in His way. They, Muslims, do however worship, according to their minds and hearts, a Deity that has most of the characteristics that we understand through faith God truly has. These have been mentioned here, as well as in Dignitatis Humanae.

Pope Pius IX condemned this in his syllabus of errors the following false notions:

"Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true."

"Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation and arrive at eternal salvation."
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm

(09-24-2009, 07:17 PM)anthony Wrote: [ -> ]Now, to my knowledge, I have not offended Christ because I have not said anything against the Faith. I am only expressing what I think to be true after having considered Revelation, and observing my Muslim friends and reading their holy book. And that which I am expressing only grants non-Catholics (in this case Muslims) the dignity that finds itself in any religious appetite or tendency.

Since, as shown above, whoever they worship is in vain, consider Exodus 20:7 -  Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord his God in vain.
Please, do tell where "people can chose to worship in any way they want" is the subject of anthony's first sentence or that their prayers were/are acceptable.

What?
(09-24-2009, 09:22 PM)Arun Wrote: [ -> ]why are so many of you so eager to defend islam?
I'm not defending Islam. (Though everything deserves to be fairly represented, I'm sure you'll agree.)

(09-24-2009, 09:32 PM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2009, 07:17 PM)anthony Wrote: [ -> ]Muslims worship in a manner that is not ordained by God. Which is to say that they do not worship Him in His way. They, Muslims, do however worship, according to their minds and hearts, a Deity that has most of the characteristics that we understand through faith God truly has. These have been mentioned here, as well as in Dignitatis Humanae.

Pope Pius IX condemned this in his syllabus of errors the following false notions:

"Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true."

"Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation and arrive at eternal salvation."
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10lamen.htm
Was I disagreeing with His Holiness? No, I don't think so. I was simply stating the what in fact happens.

Quote:
(09-24-2009, 07:17 PM)anthony Wrote: [ -> ]Now, to my knowledge, I have not offended Christ because I have not said anything against the Faith. I am only expressing what I think to be true after having considered Revelation, and observing my Muslim friends and reading their holy book. And that which I am expressing only grants non-Catholics (in this case Muslims) the dignity that finds itself in any religious appetite or tendency.

Since, as shown above, whoever they worship is in vain, consider Exodus 20:7 -  Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord his God in vain.
I'll allow  you time to edit this part of your post so that when corrected, those reading it can discern some point you're trying to make by it. Right now, either I'm really tired, or you're just writing whatever sounds really badass and condemnatory. Not every condemnation can be applied to any situation. This isn't a case of idolatry or taking the Lord's name in vain. It is a case of there being an imperfect situation with regards to the world's religions, viz. there are many, not one. This is a problem, but not one that frustrates God to the point of His abandoning us all, and not one that frustrates man to the point of his being unable to cry out to the True God, despite his dogmatic limitations.

I don't believe in indifferentism (though cynical I am at times), nor universalism. I wouldn't even say that I am an optimist with regards to humanity, or the human condition. But I do have a great confidence in God's infinite willingness to listen for the beating of the heart of a man alive with response to the grace that is already at work in the world, recreating and reforming all things in Christ. This is part of why I will put up a fight, not for false religions, not even only for Truth's sake, but for the souls who, while not members of the Church, are grasping for Her and Her Eternal Founder despite their sinful ways and erroneous views: And on some level, for those same souls who are deeply committed to religion in principle, and have a great sense of duty and awe at the life they've been given and the one they hope awaits them.

Sorry for all the mushy. I may have just sealed my fate by letting so much out like that. It probably doesn't contribute to the substance of my rebuke (or argument, whatever). But I think there is this chord in most people that needs to be struck. Newman knew of it. It can help us see some truth, and will some good. Just trying to get a rounder view of my thoughts understood, for yay or nay.
(09-24-2009, 09:21 PM)Hotspurcantresistposting Wrote: [ -> ]I would like to mention that the discussed quote from Nostra Aetate has a footnote that references "St. Gregory VII letter XXI to Anzir (Nacir), King of Mauritania". Does anyone have a link to an online facsimile or transcription of this document?

Here's a portion of the text. Found it floating about somewhere at some time. Saved it.

[quote]Gregory . . . to Anazir, king of the province of Mauretania Sitifensis in Africa.

Your Highness sent to us within a year a request that we would ordain the priest Servandus as bishop according to the Christian order. This we have taken pains to do, as your request seemed proper and of good promise. You also sent gifts to us, released some Christian captives out of regard for St. Peter, chief of the Apostles, and affection for us, and promised to release others. This good action was inspired in your heart by God, the creator of all things, without whom we can neither do nor think any good thing. He who lighteth every man that cometh into the world enlightened your mind in this purpose. For Almighty God, who desires that all men shall be saved and that none shall perish, approves nothing more highly in us than this: that a man love his fellow man next to his God and do nothing to him which he would not that others should do to himself.

This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, "He is our peace who hath made both one."

This grace granted to you by God is admired and praised by many of the Roman nobility who have learned from us of your benevolence and high qualities. Two of these, Alberic and Cencius, intimate friends of ours brought up with us from early youth at the Roman court, earnestly desiring to enjoy your friendship and to serve your interests here, are sending their messengers to you to let you know how highly they regard your prudence and high character and how greatly they desire and are able to be of service to you.

In recommending these messengers to Your Highness, we beg you to show them, out of regard for us and in return for the loyalty of the men aforesaid, the same respect which we desire always to show toward you and all who belong to you. For God knows our true regard for you to his glory and how truly we desire your prosperity and honor, both in this life and in the life to come, and how earnestly we pray both with our lips and with our heart that God himself, after the long journey of this life, may lead you into the bosom of the most holy patriarch Abraham.


Hanc itaque charitatem nos et vos specialibus nobis quam caeteris gentibus debemus, qui unum Deum, licet diverso modo, credimus et confitemur, qui eum Creatorem saeculorum et gubernatorem huius mundi quotidie laudamus et veneramur.

"Thou and We are bound, therefore, by this charity peculiar among us compared to the remainder of the nations, that we believe in and confess one God, although in a different way, Who we praise and venerate daily as Creator of the ages and Ruler of the same world."
No need to edit anything since I don't dispute the sincerity of faithful Islams. Nor do I claim that there are Muslims who are not "good people".


Hinduism has what they consider or liken to a trinity.
Brhaman, kali, and vishnu I belive.
Same God?
If not why not? It seems many here r blinded in favor of mohamadanism is some way. Mohamadan false piety maybe is the reason or mohamadan false morality I'm not sure. But its shocking on a trad forum its shocking anytime such nonsense is spwed by catholics!!
Whatever. I think I'm right. You think I'm crazy. Lets call it a day, and pray for the salvation of every Muslim. The end. Amen.
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