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Full Version: Is anybody here against the canonization of Bishop Sheen?
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(09-24-2009, 03:04 AM)Iuvenalis Wrote: [ -> ]I'm for the old canonization process, and whosoever makes it through that, may they be sainted.

Forgive my ignorance and youth, but what was the old process?
(09-24-2009, 03:42 AM)OCLittleFlower Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-24-2009, 03:04 AM)Iuvenalis Wrote: [ -> ]I'm for the old canonization process, and whosoever makes it through that, may they be sainted.

Forgive my ignorance and youth, but what was the old process?

He's probably referring to the Devil's Advocate.

I recall reading a book (written by someone after his death - I don't have time to research it right now) about the many conversions brought about by Bishop Sheen and his dealings with converts "behind the scenes."  They were truly amazing and suitable of a saint.

- Lisa
Bah humbug.  Our opinions on someone's canonization doesn't matter a hill of beans.  If the Church says Archbishop Sheen or Mother Teresa or Josemaria Escriva or John Paul II is a saint, so they are.
(09-24-2009, 03:04 AM)Iuvenalis Wrote: [ -> ]I'm for the old canonization process, and whosoever makes it through that, may they be sainted.

I don't know much about how we canonize saints, but I've heard of needing some miracles, many conversions, heroic virtue, etc., but what is the difference between the old and new process? When and what changed?  ???
I'm no expert, but the main difference I'm aware of is the dropping of the devil's advocate office.  This was someone appointed by the Church specifically to ferret out anything that would show the person wasn't a saint.  So there were two investigations going on at once: one looking for evidence of sainthood, and one looking for evidence against it, rather than one investigation that would need to stay unbiased.  It's not hard to see how dropping the second one could make it easier to canonize someone who had some skeletons that didn't come out in the other investigation, possibly things that could embarrass the Church if they were unearthed after canonization.  It's also not hard to see how that could be extra likely in the case of a very popular person who was recently alive.

In the movie The Third Miracle, Ed Harris plays Fr. Frank Shore, a sainthood investigator.  In one case, he's investigating the case of a priest who drowned, and there have been reported miracles associated with him, including a wheelchair-bound young man whom Fr. Shore himself saw walking after being immersed in the waters where this priest died.  Only because F
(09-24-2009, 11:30 AM)Mhoram Wrote: [ -> ]I'm no expert, but the main difference I'm aware of is the dropping of the devil's advocate office.  This was someone appointed by the Church specifically to ferret out anything that would show the person wasn't a saint.  So there were two investigations going on at once: one looking for evidence of sainthood, and one looking for evidence against it, rather than one investigation that would need to stay unbiased.  It's not hard to see how dropping the second one could make it easier to canonize someone who had some skeletons that didn't come out in the other investigation, possibly things that could embarrass the Church if they were unearthed after canonization.  It's also not hard to see how that could be extra likely in the case of a very popular person who was recently alive.

In the movie The Third Miracle, Ed Harris plays Fr. Frank Shore, a sainthood investigator.  In one case, he's investigating the case of a priest who drowned, and there have been reported miracles associated with him, including a wheelchair-bound young man whom Fr. Shore himself saw walking after being immersed in the waters where this priest died.  Only because Fr. Shore is a suspicious guy who's been burned on these investigations before, does he keep digging into this priest's past until he discovers that the guy wrote diaries about his dealings with demons and probably killed himself.  A less persnickety, more pro-sainthood investigator, or one under more political pressure to advance the process, wouldn't have dug that deeply.

It is interesting that you bring this movie up because it is also relevant here.  First, one of the changes to the new canonization process is that somebody is canonized after only two documented miracles.  That has always been true in Canon Law, but long-standing tradition has required three.  That is very rarely, if ever, held to these days. 

On a personal note, I also really like this move.  With the exception of his attraction to Anne Hesche's character, he, despite his flaws, remains a faithful priest.  It is a dramatic yet uplifting move at the same time.
From the sounds of it, having two investigations is better because no one has a conflict of interest.  But then, I think the general "everyone goes to heaven" midset has taken over a bit, and caused even the Vatican to be willing to loosen the requirements for sainthood.
(09-24-2009, 04:53 PM)OCLittleFlower Wrote: [ -> ]From the sounds of it, having two investigations is better because no one has a conflict of interest.  But then, I think the general "everyone goes to heaven" midset has taken over a bit, and caused even the Vatican to be willing to loosen the requirements for sainthood.

Aren't we speaking about this in the wrong way, however?  I mean, if the Church says that one is in heaven we must believe that the are.  To doubt this would either be to doubt the Holy Spirit or to be a sede. 

The only way the Church could "loosen" requirements for sainthood would be if they just let us officially know more people who are getting into heaven than they used to.
I would be for it.  I credit my wife's conversion to his writings.
(09-24-2009, 04:53 PM)OCLittleFlower Wrote: [ -> ]From the sounds of it, having two investigations is better because no one has a conflict of interest.  But then, I think the general "everyone goes to heaven" midset has taken over a bit, and caused even the Vatican to be willing to loosen the requirements for sainthood.

Exactly.
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