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Full Version: Vatican astronomer says if aliens exist, they may not need redemption
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(11-13-2009, 02:18 AM)Baskerville Wrote: [ -> ]A fair question. The Church is in a shambles, the liturgy is a disgrace, we have gays and little boy rapists running most parishes and diocese and Cardinals covering it up and this bafoon is worried about whether or not ET is out their phoning home. I think the answer to the question "is there intelligent life in the Vatican" is a firm no.

And laypeople judge the hierarchy, listening to the Adversary: you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
(11-13-2009, 02:18 AM)Baskerville Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-13-2009, 01:05 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]Somebody on another forum asked if there was intelligent life in the Vatican. I didn't say it. LOL

A fair question. The Church is in a shambles, the liturgy is a disgrace, we have gays and little boy rapists running most parishes and diocese and Cardinals covering it up and this bafoon is worried about whether or not ET is out their phoning home. I think the answer to the question "is there intelligent life in the Vatican" is a firm no.

Just an FYI: The "other forum" was not FE. It was not even a traditional forum.
(11-13-2009, 12:48 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]Let's assume first that there could be "significant beings" in other worlds who passed the original test and remained in friendship with God. Then the Vatican astronomer would be right. They wouldn't need redemption and would probably be living in some blessed, glorified state similar to what we will experience after the final resurrection.

Now let's assume they failed the test. Forget the idea of "significant beings" becoming incarnate angels or incarnate devils. Angels (blessed and fallen) are a species of their own. Psalm 8 says that we (earthlings) were made little less than the angels. What if those on other planets were made a little less or a little greater than us? That would make the consequences of their fall greater or lesser than ours.

I can't fathom the ramifications of that. I can only see one God Incarnate, one Savior, the Alpha and the Omega, who will come again to judge the living and the dead. He came to our planet and "dwelt amongst us." That would be a tough act to keep duplicating if other worlds needed redemption too. Not impossible, mind you, for nothing is impossible with God. But it would seem unnecessary, and - pardon the expression - an overkill, too much of a good thing. I hope that doesn't sound disrespectful. 

As for your last question, I don't think the Church has any responsibility towards so-called extraterrestrials. When Jesus told His apostles to go into the whole world and preach the Gospel, I'm assuming He meant our planet Earth. Our planet provides enough water for Baptism and enough grain and wine for the Eucharist. If extraterrestrials exist and if they need redemption, I'm sure God will provide a way that is just right for them.

- Lisa

Your post leads me to think it's very difficult to reconcile the existence of non-human significant beings with Catholic theology.  If they exist, they couldn't have fallen because of the exclusively human focus of the Incarnation and Redemption and so would be very glorious beings to behold and interact with.  If they fell, then they would be like demons, without access to God's mercy and merciless to His creation.  They would be like mortal bodies containing damned souls.  There is some evidence of the existence of this type of being if even ONE of the many abduction cases are true events.

There is a short story written by a Carmelite nun called "Beyond the End."  In it, she explored the above idea; not too deeply, though, because its at an adolescent reading level.  Very interesting read if you can find it.
(11-13-2009, 10:37 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-13-2009, 02:18 AM)Baskerville Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-13-2009, 01:05 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]Somebody on another forum asked if there was intelligent life in the Vatican. I didn't say it. LOL

A fair question. The Church is in a shambles, the liturgy is a disgrace, we have gays and little boy rapists running most parishes and diocese and Cardinals covering it up and this bafoon is worried about whether or not ET is out their phoning home. I think the answer to the question "is there intelligent life in the Vatican" is a firm no.

Just an FYI: The "other forum" was not FE. It was not even a traditional forum.

Also, SCG was not, I think, attempting to seriously ask that question and shift this thread to Vatican bashing (even if the Vatican deserves a bashing).
We have nothing that says there is or isn't other life in other galaxies in any scriptures. All we have is what pertains to us. There's nothing that says God didn't try again, but on the other planet they didn't eat the apple and so it's an ideal world - an Eden, even. Maybe they had original sin, but they fully embraced Christ, the whole planet converted, and they all went to Heaven at the end of their world? But it's all speculation.

One thing  scripture does say is to take the log out of your eye before the speck from your brother's. Seems to me there are better things this guy could be doing for humanity than speculating about other worlds. How about using his media exposure to hypothesize about what aliens must think of a species that kills millions of its young in the womb?  Is it any wonder they don't want to make contact with us? I'd hesitate to get chummy with people like that; if they kill their own because they're inconvenient, what would they do to aliens?  
(11-13-2009, 11:11 AM)Zakhur Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-13-2009, 10:37 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-13-2009, 02:18 AM)Baskerville Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-13-2009, 01:05 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]Somebody on another forum asked if there was intelligent life in the Vatican. I didn't say it. LOL

A fair question. The Church is in a shambles, the liturgy is a disgrace, we have gays and little boy rapists running most parishes and diocese and Cardinals covering it up and this bafoon is worried about whether or not ET is out their phoning home. I think the answer to the question "is there intelligent life in the Vatican" is a firm no.

Just an FYI: The "other forum" was not FE. It was not even a traditional forum.

Also, SCG was not, I think, attempting to seriously ask that question and shift this thread to Vatican bashing (even if the Vatican deserves a bashing).

Right... I just thought it was a clever comeback.
(11-13-2009, 01:21 AM)iggyting Wrote: [ -> ]Just to add more 'ramblings' to the intriguing thoughts in the OP:-

In the Creed we say God created heaven and earth and 'all that is seen and unseen'...so the vision is open up to a proliferation in Creation. Genesis 1 unfolds the heavens and the earth in time, and in Cap 3,  the first alien life appears in the form of a talking serpent (later recognized as Satan). By inference, already a spiritual battle was waged in the heavens. Elsewhere, the Bible continues to speak of  giants and descendants of fallen angels and their kind. St Paul reminds us that we are battling against principalities, powers and various orders of being. The Revelation of St John contains various images of creatures, the Cherubim and the Seraphim. The angels are also addressed as 'sons of God' in OT. So Creation is filled with alien-beings. Do they originally conform to the 'image and likeness' of God, like man?

In many ancient myths and creation-stories, the gods and children of the gods interplayed. Many stories and novels were written of them. The Lord of the Ring and the Silmarillion of Tolkien delight us with the fables of men, elves, hobbits, the Valar and the Ainur. The Valars(akin to the archangels) were allowed to participate in creation.Men and Elves were children of the One. It was observed in these stories....in the eons of time, facts turned into legends and legends became myths in the memory of man. Not all of these beings were fallen. Do these mythic creatures allure to something factual in Creation?

Is there more to the 'unseen' than to the 'seen'? Please do not think I am advocating any heretical thoughts!  :)

I have a tendency to think so -- precisely because of having read the works of Tolkien and Lewis.  Thus, I'm open to the possibility of a being like "Santa Claus" existing, but only as a servant of God to those whom God deems to have the need of his action.  I've heard stories about such things from very sincere-sounding people.  If such beings exist, they seem only to interact with humans on a case by case basis, never collectively (at least not with the collective's awareness).

I know this sounds like the Spiritualist movement of the mid to late 19th century, but the necromantic preoccupations of those people changes nothing of the fact that myths and legends like those brought up by iggytinh exist in human history and the stories continue to be told today.
(11-13-2009, 08:55 AM)glgas Wrote: [ -> ]We got no revelation about such things. The answer depends on

What is the extent of the dogma: One Saint, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

If the One applies to the world, than the original sin applies to the possible aliens too, and they are saved through the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, which will be revealed to them in due time (as it was revealed to the American Indiansafter 1492)

I see no theological absurdity in the opinion that they are multiple worlds with multiple testing and result. Those who passed the test are already members of the Triumphant Church, does who failed are either extincted of in some phase of the history of Salvation. Since any creatures relationship to God is only 'relatio rationis ratiotinatae'  (I hang on a rope, below is the abyss and above there is nothing, the rope just ends) multiple Incarnation is not impossible, although not very probable. There is no need for it.

What do you think of this idea:  The Incarnation of the Word happened, historically, on Earth.  The Redemption also did.  Scripture says all Creation is awaiting the revelation of the sons of God.  Therefore, other significant beings in the cosmos are awaiting the proclamation of the Gospel once Christendom masters intergalactic transportation; just as Christendom mastered intercontinental transportation to proclaim the Gospel to the whole Earth.
Why are we even debating this? We have enough trouble dealing with real issues and events! The time spent debating this would be better spent praying for the souls in Purgatory.
(11-13-2009, 11:15 AM)SoCalLocal Wrote: [ -> ]We have nothing that says there is or isn't other life in other galaxies in any scriptures. All we have is what pertains to us. There's nothing that says God didn't try again, but on the other planet they didn't eat the apple and so it's an ideal world - an Eden, even. Maybe they had original sin, but they fully embraced Christ, the whole planet converted, and they all went to Heaven at the end of their world? But it's all speculation.

One thing  scripture does say is to take the log out of your eye before the speck from your brother's. Seems to me there are better things this guy could be doing for humanity than speculating about other worlds. How about using his media exposure to hypothesize about what aliens must think of a species that kills millions of its young in the womb?  Is it any wonder they don't want to make contact with us? I'd hesitate to get chummy with people like that; if they kill their own because they're inconvenient, what would they do to aliens?  

You shouldn't expect that astronomers would have their minds on the affairs of Earth. :)
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