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(12-05-2009, 02:02 AM)John C Wrote: [ -> ]I'll take leave of u all at this time. Thank u for ur participation. It's been an interesting test (but by that i don't mean i'm a troll). I don't 'do' these things very often (they take too long for one thing). I have much to learn which will unfortunately take much time. Just a bit of (serious) fun. I'll be watching from a distance even if i don't post.

Sorry if anyone feels i'm ducking out early - i don't really think i have much more to offer anyway

i'll let u continue with ur RFID conversation.

Pax   :)
I dislike being part of experiments, especially frustrating ones. Well, I don't think you are ducking out early, but very late. Since the RFID conversation was my attempt to lend some aid to the barcodes debate (in a way), it makes no sense to continue it.

(12-05-2009, 02:02 AM)John C Wrote: [ -> ]I'll take leave of u all at this time. Thank u for ur participation. It's been an interesting test (but by that i don't mean i'm a troll). I don't 'do' these things very often (they take too long for one thing). I have much to learn which will unfortunately take much time. Just a bit of (serious) fun. I'll be watching from a distance even if i don't post.

Sorry if anyone feels i'm ducking out early - i don't really think i have much more to offer anyway

i'll let u continue with ur RFID conversation.

Pax   :)

John, thanks for your post. I really don't want you to leave or stop the debate; there is much to be learned here and I don't necessarily think you're wrong. I agree with some of your points but the mocking in your posts must stop. It is simply not Catholic. Please continue the discussion with humility screening your every word and objectivity guiding your reason. You started out so well! I immediately thought to myself after your first few posts (before all this), "Finally, here is someone who means well and is truly searching for Truth." Just drop the ad hominems and you'll be fine.
Cheers Inpefess.

U know, a few minutes after i made that last post, i heard a loud cracking noise but couldn't figure out the source. Mildly strange.

Finally i realised.... it was the sound of Rosarium's heart ... breaking.

I'll miss u too buddy.  :)
(12-05-2009, 04:02 AM)John C Wrote: [ -> ]Cheers Inpefess.

U know, a few minutes after i made that last post, i heard a loud cracking noise but couldn't figure out the source. Mildly strange.

Finally i realised.... it was the sound of Rosarium's heart ... breaking.

I'll miss u too buddy.  :)

Shut up.
(11-21-2009, 04:37 PM)Munda_cor_meum Wrote: [ -> ]I just read about the "Mark of the Beast". Is it going to be a physical mark, spiritual mark, or does the Church teach something completely different about this particular bit of Scripture?

The Church has no specific teaching on this matter.  There are, however, other Scriptural passages which may have some relevance.

See the following.

Genesis 15:4:
And the Lord said to him: No, it shall not be so, but whosoever shall kill Cain shall be punished sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, that whosoever found him should not kill him.

Ezechiel, Chapter 9:

1 And he cried in my ears with a loud voice, saying: The visitations of the city are at hand, and every one hath a destroying weapon in his hand. 2 And behold six men came from the way of the upper gate, which looketh to the north: and each one had his weapon of destruction in his hand: and there was one man in the midst of them clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn at his reins: and they went in, and stood by the brazen altar. 3 And the glory of the Lord of Israel went up from the cherub, upon which he was, to the threshold of the house: and he called to the man that was clothed with linen, and had a writer's inkhorn at his loins. 4 And the Lord said to him: Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem: and mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof. 5 And to the others he said in my hearing: Go ye after him through the city, and strike: let not your eyes spare, nor be ye moved with pity.

4 "Mark Thau"... Thau, or Tau, is the last letter in the Hebrew alphabet, and signifies a sign, or a mark; which is the reason why some translators render this place set a mark, or mark a mark without specifying what this mark was. But St. Jerome, and other interpreters, conclude it was the form of the letter Thau, which in the ancient Hebrew character, was the form of a cross.

3 Kings, Chapter 10:

13 And king Solomon gave the queen of Saba all that she desired, and asked of him: besides what he offered he himself of his royal bounty. And she returned, and went to her own country with her servants. 14 And the weight of the gold that was brought to Solomon every year, was six hundred and sixty-six talents of gold: 15 Besides that which the men brought him that were over the tributes, and the merchants, and they that sold by retail, and all the kings of Arabia, and the governors of the country.
(11-23-2009, 05:24 PM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]The "mark of the beast" is a part of a highly symbolic book that has already been fulfilled.  I find it funny how people wonder what the "mark of the beast" will be, but the other mark in the book, the "mark of the lamb," which is more important, is glossed over.

The "mark of the beast" was a spiritual mark of one who adhered to Emperor worship during the times right before the Destruction of the Jewish Temple in AD 70.  This is what the Book of Revelation is about - the ending of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New Covenant and the establishing of the "Kingdom of Heaven" which Christ spoke of in the Gospels as being "imminent."  The book of revelation is wrought with what is called "Apocalyptic Symbolism" - it uses colorful symbols to portray realities, both spiritual and corporeal.  One thing to note when reading the Book of Apocalypse is when you see the word "earth," don't think of the whole world, but replace the word "earth," with "land."  What group of people called themselves "the land?" - none other than Israel - so "earth" is better interpretted as "the land," and "the land" is better seen as the land of Israel.  This is the true interpretation of the word "gi," which means "land."  Another word could have been used if the whole world was meant, and in a few places in the book it is used, showing that the writer knew the difference.  Another thing to notice is the very first verse of the book:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to make known to his servants the things which must shortly come to pass...  The wording in Greek used to describe this denotes haste, which is reiterated at the end of the book.  One reason why SO many Christians demand that the Book of Revelation is future is the erroneous belief that it was written in 96 AD when St. John was nearly 100 years old!  Nothing of overwhelming importance happened "shortly after" 96 AD, forcing people to place the meaning of the text way in the future. But, if the date of 68 AD is used for the correct date of authorship, we see one of the most profound events in history occuring "in a short time" after in 70 AD, when the Jews to this day lost their Temple and old form of worship, and the Kingdom of Christ began on a more profound level.  Both Biblical and external evidence strongly attest to the idea that the book was penned a bit before the Destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple, probably 67-68 AD.  We even see the Temple being portrayed in the book (although some say this means a future Temple, which given the mood of this book is unlikely).

The book of Revelation is a recapulation of the events surrounding 70 AD (it is seen time and time again in the book, such as the 7 kings:  Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come, but when he does come, he must remain only a short while  The king who "is" in none other than the infamous Nero, and the five who had fallen are Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula and Cladius, the one who is to come and remain only a "short while" could be seen as Galba, who reigned for only a matter of months, but it could also be seen as Vespasian if the "year of the three emperors" is not used, for he did remain "only a short time" in regards to the events of 70 AD) - the only future presented in the book occurs after chapter 19.  We, as Roman Catholics, believe that we are right at this moment living in the "millenium," that symbolic "1,000 year period" of the "Church Age."  We see in chapter 20 that the beast (Nero and the Roman Empire - it is not a coincidence that Nero Caesar adds up to the infamous 666 in when given in Hebrew numbers - or 616 as is seen in several ancient manuscripts, ever proving that Nero was meant) and the false prophet (the Pharasiac Sanhedrin) are cast into perdition BEFORE Satan is bound for the 1,000 years, the millenial "Church Age."  To believe that the "beast" and the "false prophet" are future figures such as Antichrist and not representations of 1st century people would be to place the millenium and bounding of Satan AFTER the time of Antichrist .  As Roman Catholics, that would be an impossibility to do if we continue to uphold the amillenialists position of St. Augustine, the one held by the Church for centuries.  To do so would be to become premillenialists, which the Church has proclaimed "cannot be taught safely."  Premillenialism is held by a vast amount of today's Protestants, namely of the Fundamentalist ilk.

Now, with all of this being said, the book of Revelation could be a foreshadowing of future events - that is it could be dual-prophetic in nature, which is not unheard of in Scripture at all.  But, we must understand that the primary fulfillment of this book was in the past, with the beginning of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.  This is why many Protestant Fundamentalists refuse to see this - they cannot be led to believe that Christ set up a Kingdom on this earth without questioning where that universal kingdom is - to do so would inevitably lead them to the Roman Catholic Church.

If you want to read one of the best books out there about this subject, pick up Rapture:  The End Time Error that Leaves the Bible Behind by David B. Currie.  This is a fascinating book that puts all of this in perspective.  I strongly recommend anyone to read it.

To John C. or anyone else who has fantastical theories about the "end-times" and uses the book of Revelation for your inspiration, please read my previous post.  666 is not the birthday of the "Antichrist."  It is not some bar-code.  The Mark of the Beast was an INTERNAL MARK of those 1st Century folks who bent the knee in favor of emperor worship instead of following the Lamb (i.e. the Mark of the Lamb, another MARK that doesn't get the attention of the infamous "Mark of the Beast.")  Although Revelation MAY be dual-prophetic, it also may not be.  There is really NO reason for us to try to force its highly symbolic apocolyptic literary style into fantastic theories of our times or the "end-times."  Revelation was fulfilled in the 1st Century, with the destruction of the Jewish Temple circa 70 AD, when the Kingdom of Heaven was publicly established on this earth (becuase it couldn't be fully established when there was a Temple present, lending to confusion among the followers of God  -  it HAD to be destroyed, and it is proof of the supernatural that it hasn't been rebuilt in 2,000 years!).  Nero Caesar IS 666 - this has been proven time and time again.  He is also the famous "616," which is seen in several other ancient manuscripts of the text.  The use of Hebrew Gematria shows this to be clearly evident. 

Trust me, once one understands the Apocalyspe of St. John for what it really is, one will have an even better understanding of the Kingdom of Heaven -- the Roman Catholic Church.
I work in the field of investment and retail banking.  I record meetings and make them available to select niche audiences via the web, amongst other things. 

About 1 year ago I was in a meeting of all the top payments executives working for the major European banks.  The meeting was held under Chatham House rules (nothing made public without the commentor's permission) so I recorded just the talks and not the question and answer session afterwards.  Top payments people from PayPal and Wells Fargo also few in from the US just for this meeting.  During the question and answer session the proposition was put forward that the only way to have a fully secure payments system would be to embed a chip in the right hand of every human which worked in a similar way to RFID.  It was roundly agreed with by the audience.  The reason to put it in the right hand (even for left handers was that the payment readers would need to be positioned for the more common right-handers to use.  Putting dual systems in would be prohibitvely expensive, and since no manual dextrerity would be required, just swipe your hand, it would not be particularly difficult for left-handers to get used to.

Mobile phones can be lost or cloned, chip and pin is not secure, people write down passwords or choose easy ones to guess.  But a chip in your hand which measures blood pressure, pulse and temperature (and stops working if they drop below levels required to sustain life) is near 100% secure.  These people had seen this sort of technology demostrated in the R&D labs of some of the biggest tech firms in the world.

I was working at the meeting so not really in a position to make any comment in relation to the similarity of what they were discussing to the Book of Revelation, but an independent consultant in the meeting did raise the question and point out the parallel.  What was more interesting was the crowd's reaction.  It was not one of, "Yes, we've read the book too, but we think it is a mere co-incidence", but rather "what they heck are you talking about?".

i.e.  To make this clear....the same top-executives that are planning, architecting and implementing the payments systems of the future involving planting chips in out bodies, right hands no less, are utterly ignorant of what it says in the final part of the best selling book of all time as well as utterly contemptously that there is any connection between what it says in that book and what they are planning to do in the future.  Now, THAT, I do find scary.

I reckon that many of us are going to live to see the Reign of the Antichrist.  LaSallette and Fatima' third secret probably warn directly of this.
Like I stated previously, the "Mark of the Beast" was an internal mark that was imprinted on one's soul denoting Emperor worship.  The reason why people try to shove the Book of Revelation WAY in the future is because the date of authorship is clouded.  It was held by many for a long time that 96 AD was the correct date of authorship, when St. John was nearly 100 years old!  This has been shown to be a very faulty date, and that the internal and external evidence all point to 67-68 AD, under the reign of Nero Caesar, as the correct date of authorship.  This means that St. John wrote Revelation first, then his Gospel, then his Epistles.  For his Gospel does not mention the impending destruction upon Jerusalem and the signs before that event as the Synoptics do, that is because the event had already happened when he wrote it.  Read in Revelation 10:11:  " And I was told, "You must again prophesy about many peoples and nations and tongues and kings." This would seem to be showing that he would write again under the guid of the Spirit, which would have been highly unlikely at the age of almost 100!  It would seem that he wrote Revelation first, in his late 60's, then he wrote his Gospel and his Epistles.

We see all this hooplah about the "Mark of the Beast."  People say it will be a barcode or a chip under one's skin.  Well, I ask these people:  What about the other mark mentioned in Revelation, the Mark of the Lamb?   What is it going to be?  Will it be a chip or a barcode, or a tattoo of a cross on the forehead?  If you are going to demand that the Mark of the Beast is a literal mark, then you must also believe that the Mark of the Lamb is too.  I find it funny how people ignore this...

It has been shown most evidently that 666 is none other than Nero Caesar, for the Hebrew Gematria proves this.  The "Mark of the Beast," the infamous 666, is a spiritual mark on one's soul denoting worship of the Roman Emperor, the infamous Nero, who demanded that he was a god.  Never was their an Emperor who was more of a tyrant than Nero, a sadistic, twisted individual. The same thing goes with the Mark of the Lamb, it is a spiritual mark on one's soul, the mark of Baptism.  The head and the hands are symbolic of what one thinks and believes (the head, the mind) and what one does (his right hand, since most people are right-handed, denoting his actions taken to defend his beliefs and stand up for what is righteous).  Also, the oil of Chrismation is taken on the head, the mark of the cross, also denoting the Mark of the Lamb.  The Mark of the Beast was the opposite of this spiritual mark.

Understand that I have spent countless hours studying this fascinating and horribly misunderstood book of the Bible.  I was raised as a Fundamentalist Protestant (Southern Baptist) who was instilled with a faulty interpretation of this valuable Scripture.  I was told that it was a literal and chronological look at the "end times."  I have seen that this is not only erroneous, but places serious doubts on the intelligence of those who interpretted this book in such a way - not seeing that Apocolyptic literary style was popular among the ancient Hebrews and its colorful symbolism was used to show spiritual and physical realities.

What most people don't understand about the Book of Revelation is that it, like all of the other Scriptures, is primarily speaking to the people of the time.  If it wasn't, it would be strikingly different than every other book of the New Testament!  When the authors of the New Testament (St. Paul, St. John, St. James etc.) were writing their books, they had NO idea that they were writing Scripture that would one day be included in the "best-selling book of all-time."  This would have been rather vain of them to think such things.  No, they were writing to specific people, as seen in St. Paul's Epistles.  In Revelation, St. John is writing to the Christians in Jerusalem, telling them what was about to befall that city in a short time, as the very first verse states clearly.  He is also writing to the established Christian churches, telling them that the Kingdom of Heaven is on the horizon, and that Jesus is Coming on the Clouds to judge Jerusalem for what they had done to him: "For the days shall come upon you, when your enemies will cast up a bank about you and surround you, and hem you in on every side, and dash you to the ground, you and your children within you, and they will not leave one stone upon another in you; because you did not know the time of your visitation."(Luke 19:43)  This time had special significance, for:  "These are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Lk. 21:22)  St. John was showing them that Jesus was about to come, that is spiritually, to judge Jerusalem.  The Gospels point to this truth several times, for example:  Speaking about the disciples mission, Jesus said in Matthew 10:23:  "You shall not finish going through the cities of Israel, before the Son of Man comes."    Speaking about St. John, who outlived all the other Apostles to a very old age, Jesus said this about him in John 21:22:  "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" Indeed, Christ did come spiritually "on the clouds of heaven" as "the Son of Man" (see Daniel) to judge Jerusalem within the lifetime of St. John, who lived to be nearly 100 years old!  He was shown what Christ Himself spoke about in the Synoptic Gospels, namely Matthew 24 and Luke 21.  Jesus told them that when these signs mentioned were taking place, to flee to the mountians away from Jerusalem - because:  "...when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near." (Luke 21:20)  This was NOT customary for the Jews facing a seige, for a walled city was a safe-haven against an oncoming army.  No, they were told to flee to the mountians, which they DID.  The Christians in Jerusalem fled to Pella, away from the city that was about to be judged.  Remember, Jesus said that "this generation shall not pass until all these things take place."  He was absolutely correct!  St. John used Apocalyptic literary style, a style popular among Jews at the time, to show the Jewish Christian readers that Christ's promises were about to come to fruition - that the Kingdom of Heaven was going to be fully established and that all prophesy from the "Old Testament" prophets was about to be fulfilled.  Remember when Jesus was being questioned by the Sanhedrin right before being sentenced to death, he said "Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming in the clouds of heaven." (Matthew 24:64).  "Coming with the clouds" is symbolic for coming in judgement, a literary device that was used many times in the Old Testament.  Jesus told the High Priest, the members of the Sanhedrin that were present, that THEY would see him "coming on the clouds of heaven," that is, coming on the clouds of judgment.  This is why the High Priest was outraged at the comment and rent his garment.  And what does the very first chapter of Revelation say:  "THE revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place. . . Behold, he is coming with the clouds"

Therefore, the book of Revelation is showing the destruction of Biblical Judaism and the Fall of the Temple in 70 AD.  It does this through an old literary technique popular among the Hebrews called recapitulation.  The same event is spoken of several different ways, with a respite in the middle to allow the reader to re-gain his grasp on the material (ch. 12).  Notice how the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls (vials) are almost identical.  Place them side by side and you will see what I mean!  The author, that is St. John, uses dramatic Apocalyptic symbolism to show to the reader the same event happening from different points of view.  This surely is a masterpiece of literature, not to mention God-breathed, inerrant literature! 

The only future to the original reader in Revelation begins in ch. 20 where it describes Satan being bound for the "thousand years," which symbolically denotes the present Church Age.  The only future to us is when he is released from the prison and leads an assault upon the "Blessed City" -- the Church, which in my opinion Satan has been released and is leading an internal incursion upon the Church (as seen in the "spirit of Vatican II") - when that fails, he will lead an external persecution headed by the "Son of Perdition.".  The book returns to its premise in ch 21:8 where it describes the New Jerusalem, the Church.  After this the reader is again warned, THREE TIMES, that Judgment is coming quickly:  "And, Behold I come quickly" 22:7  --   "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near." 22:10 "...Surely I come quickly" 22:20.

Thus, the Kingdom of Heaven, which Christ spoke about as being imminent, was fully established in 70 AD when Christ came "on the clouds of heaven" as "The Son of Man" to judge Jerusalem for "not knowing the hour of their visitation," thus mis-interpretting all of the Messianic Prophesies and sentencing the Son of God to death. Satan was bound due to this event for the symbolic "thousand years," thus allowing the Gospel to be spread without limitation and the "nations to be healed."  The Kingdom of Heaven IS the Holy Catholic Church.  Amen.
(12-13-2009, 10:45 AM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]Like I stated previously, [...]

Thanks for sharing your non-Catholic perspective.
(12-14-2009, 02:23 PM)59zvc Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-13-2009, 10:45 AM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]Like I stated previously, [...]
Thanks for stating your non-Catholic perspective.

That is a Catholic perspective isn't it?
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