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I just read about the "Mark of the Beast". Is it going to be a physical mark, spiritual mark, or does the Church teach something completely different about this particular bit of Scripture?
(11-21-2009, 04:37 PM)Munda_cor_meum Wrote: [ -> ]I just read about the "Mark of the Beast". Is it going to be a physical mark, spiritual mark, or does the Church teach something completely different about this particular bit of Scripture?

The Beast represents many evils, not just one. The mark of the beast is a mark in a spiritual sense, in that those who are subject to the Beast are marked for punishment.

Apocalypse 14:9-10 Wrote:And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice: If any man shall adore the beast and his image, and receive his character in his forehead, or in his hand; He also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of his wrath, and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels, and in the sight of the Lamb.

It would be very simple minded (and like those weird protestants) to think the beast is a single living creature like an animal, with many heads and horns, and the mark of it is a physical mark on the forehead or hand. Perhaps the "forehead" and "hand" statement refers to "thought and deed".

I'm sure there are physical representations of the evils that the Beast represents, but evil takes many forms.
(11-21-2009, 07:20 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2009, 04:37 PM)Munda_cor_meum Wrote: [ -> ]I just read about the "Mark of the Beast". Is it going to be a physical mark, spiritual mark, or does the Church teach something completely different about this particular bit of Scripture?

The Beast represents many evils, not just one. The mark of the beast is a mark in a spiritual sense, in that those who are subject to the Beast are marked for punishment.

Apocalypse 14:9-10 Wrote:And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice: If any man shall adore the beast and his image, and receive his character in his forehead, or in his hand; He also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mingled with pure wine in the cup of his wrath, and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the sight of the holy angels, and in the sight of the Lamb.

It would be very simple minded (and like those weird protestants) to think the beast is a single living creature like an animal, with many heads and horns, and the mark of it is a physical mark on the forehead or hand. Perhaps the "forehead" and "hand" statement refers to "thought and deed".

I'm sure there are physical representations of the evils that the Beast represents, but evil takes many forms.

[Image: obama.jpg]

are we sure???

but yeah, people have such weird ideas about Revelations including some Catholics, like the end times will be this grandiose cliched event, well we have been living in the end times since 33AD.  I like how these bible "scholars" make all of these pronouncements that these signs are pointing to the end of the world, but what does Jesus tells His apostles when they ask about the end of the world, essentially "I don't know, only the Father knows that."  I guess faith is easier to grasp when things are all failing than when things are good.  Many of the things about 666, Mark of the Beast, Whore of Babylon, are just sensationalized to sell books.  One of the most remarkable explanations I ever received about 666 I got from a Baptist theology professor ironically.  There is no real secret code or anything to it that it is Nero's name or whatnot.  It is from numerology, ancient numerology states that 7 is the number of heavenly perfection (hence seventh heaven), so 6 is one short of 7 thus inferior, fallen.  And if you know ancient wisdom literature, there is a tendency to repeat things in order to emphaised something, so by saying 6-6-6, John is saying fallen, fallen, fallen, or unholy, unholy, unholy.  Which frankly to me makes a lot more sense than other theories about it.  (now, I am assuming it is 666 not 616 as some ancient manuscripts have and may possibly be the oldest).  Sure, it has some holes such as that the Greek uses the acutal word for 666 and not 6 three times, but it could be just the way they wrote then. 

I see it as a spiritual mark, like it is our fallen nature, similar to the Mark of Cain, it something that we carry the ability not just to do good, but the ability to great evil which the beast gave us when he beguiled the woman.

 
I think receiving the mark on your forehead or hand is a reference to phylacteries, Jews wore those to show that they kept God's word as He commanded but they were symbolic, so the mark of the beast would be symbolic of keeping your hand and mind ready for evil.
(11-21-2009, 04:37 PM)Munda_cor_meum Wrote: [ -> ]I just read about the "Mark of the Beast". Is it going to be a physical mark, spiritual mark, or does the Church teach something completely different about this particular bit of Scripture?
Stop reading Protestant gibberish.

Revelation is a book of hope for persecuted people. It's written in code. If you read the opening lines, it says shortly come to pass, not sometime in the distant future! Remember, early Christians were expecting the Second Coming to be sooner rather than later. They sort of dropped out of society while waiting. Which is why Paul scolded them and said whoever won't work, doesn't eat.  But I digress.

666 is numerology. The Jews were big on that stuff, and a lot of Christains started out Jewish. Hebrew used the same symbols for numbers and letters; David added up to 14. Triples mean "est" - perfection. The geneology of Jesus lists 3 sets of 14 names: Davidest.

Likewise, Nero Caesar adds up to 666. His image was on all coinage. Hence no one could buy or sell without the mark of the beast.

We could write in code here, in ways which we all understand, yet allow some deniability in the event of interception. If I were to refer to The Teleprompter, I suspect almost everyone would understand who I meant. 

There are plenty of Bible Commentaries. Ask Santa for a Catholic one. (The Jerome Commentary isn't terribly interesting - it's rather dry and scholarly) There are also footnotes aplenty in Catholic Bibles. That's why it's important to get a Catholic Bible rather than just any Bible which includes Apocrypha. drbo.org is an online Catholic Bible and the footnotes are there as well.
(11-22-2009, 12:48 AM)SoCalLocal Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-21-2009, 04:37 PM)Munda_cor_meum Wrote: [ -> ]I just read about the "Mark of the Beast". Is it going to be a physical mark, spiritual mark, or does the Church teach something completely different about this particular bit of Scripture?
Stop reading Protestant gibberish.

Revelation is a book of hope for persecuted people. It's written in code. If you read the opening lines, it says shortly come to pass, not sometime in the distant future! Remember, early Christians were expecting the Second Coming to be sooner rather than later. They sort of dropped out of society while waiting. Which is why Paul scolded them and said whoever won't work, doesn't eat.  But I digress.

666 is numerology. The Jews were big on that stuff, and a lot of Christains started out Jewish. Hebrew used the same symbols for numbers and letters; David added up to 14. Triples mean "est" - perfection. The geneology of Jesus lists 3 sets of 14 names: Davidest.

Likewise, Nero Caesar adds up to 666. His image was on all coinage. Hence no one could buy or sell without the mark of the beast.

We could write in code here, in ways which we all understand, yet allow some deniability in the event of interception. If I were to refer to The Teleprompter, I suspect almost everyone would understand who I meant. 

There are plenty of Bible Commentaries. Ask Santa for a Catholic one. (The Jerome Commentary isn't terribly interesting - it's rather dry and scholarly) There are also footnotes aplenty in Catholic Bibles. That's why it's important to get a Catholic Bible rather than just any Bible which includes Apocrypha. drbo.org is an online Catholic Bible and the footnotes are there as well.

Good post.

IMO, the best and most in-depth Catholic commentary is found in the Haydock Bible here: http://haydock1859.tripod.com/
Here is the mark of the beast...

[Image: Obama-logo-712385.jpg]

Or maybe this...

[Image: OBAMA+SYMBOL+copy.jpg]

The "mark of the beast" is a part of a highly symbolic book that has already been fulfilled.  I find it funny how people wonder what the "mark of the beast" will be, but the other mark in the book, the "mark of the lamb," which is more important, is glossed over.

The "mark of the beast" was a spiritual mark of one who adhered to Emperor worship during the times right before the Destruction of the Jewish Temple in AD 70.  This is what the Book of Revelation is about - the ending of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New Covenant and the establishing of the "Kingdom of Heaven" which Christ spoke of in the Gospels as being "imminent."  The book of revelation is wrought with what is called "Apocalyptic Symbolism" - it uses colorful symbols to portray realities, both spiritual and corporeal.  One thing to note when reading the Book of Apocalypse is when you see the word "earth," don't think of the whole world, but replace the word "earth," with "land."  What group of people called themselves "the land?" - none other than Israel - so "earth" is better interpretted as "the land," and "the land" is better seen as the land of Israel.  This is the true interpretation of the word "gi," which means "land."  Another word could have been used if the whole world was meant, and in a few places in the book it is used, showing that the writer knew the difference.  Another thing to notice is the very first verse of the book:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to make known to his servants the things which must shortly come to pass...  The wording in Greek used to describe this denotes haste, which is reiterated at the end of the book.  One reason why SO many Christians demand that the Book of Revelation is future is the erroneous belief that it was written in 96 AD when St. John was nearly 100 years old!  Nothing of overwhelming importance happened "shortly after" 96 AD, forcing people to place the meaning of the text way in the future. But, if the date of 68 AD is used for the correct date of authorship, we see one of the most profound events in history occuring "in a short time" after in 70 AD, when the Jews to this day lost their Temple and old form of worship, and the Kingdom of Christ began on a more profound level.  Both Biblical and external evidence strongly attest to the idea that the book was penned a bit before the Destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple, probably 67-68 AD.  We even see the Temple being portrayed in the book (although some say this means a future Temple, which given the mood of this book is unlikely).

The book of Revelation is a recapulation of the events surrounding 70 AD (it is seen time and time again in the book, such as the 7 kings:  Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come, but when he does come, he must remain only a short while  The king who "is" in none other than the infamous Nero, and the five who had fallen are Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula and Cladius, the one who is to come and remain only a "short while" could be seen as Galba, who reigned for only a matter of months, but it could also be seen as Vespasian if the "year of the three emperors" is not used, for he did remain "only a short time" in regards to the events of 70 AD) - the only future presented in the book occurs after chapter 19.  We, as Roman Catholics, believe that we are right at this moment living in the "millenium," that symbolic "1,000 year period" of the "Church Age."  We see in chapter 20 that the beast (Nero and the Roman Empire - it is not a coincidence that Nero Caesar adds up to the infamous 666 in when given in Hebrew numbers - or 616 as is seen in several ancient manuscripts, ever proving that Nero was meant) and the false prophet (the Pharasiac Sanhedrin) are cast into perdition BEFORE Satan is bound for the 1,000 years, the millenial "Church Age."  To believe that the "beast" and the "false prophet" are future figures such as Antichrist and not representations of 1st century people would be to place the millenium and bounding of Satan AFTER the time of Antichrist .  As Roman Catholics, that would be an impossibility to do if we continue to uphold the amillenialists position of St. Augustine, the one held by the Church for centuries.  To do so would be to become premillenialists, which the Church has proclaimed "cannot be taught safely."  Premillenialism is held by a vast amount of today's Protestants, namely of the Fundamentalist ilk.

Now, with all of this being said, the book of Revelation could be a foreshadowing of future events - that is it could be dual-prophetic in nature, which is not unheard of in Scripture at all.  But, we must understand that the primary fulfillment of this book was in the past, with the beginning of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.  This is why many Protestant Fundamentalists refuse to see this - they cannot be led to believe that Christ set up a Kingdom on this earth without questioning where that universal kingdom is - to do so would inevitably lead them to the Roman Catholic Church.

If you want to read one of the best books out there about this subject, pick up Rapture:  The End Time Error that Leaves the Bible Behind by David B. Currie.  This is a fascinating book that puts all of this in perspective.  I strongly recommend anyone to read it.
(11-23-2009, 05:24 PM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]The "mark of the beast" is a part of a highly symbolic book that has already been fulfilled.  I find it funny how people wonder what the "mark of the beast" will be, but the other mark in the book, the "mark of the lamb," which is more important, is glossed over.

The "mark of the beast" was a spiritual mark of one who adhered to Emperor worship during the times right before the Destruction of the Jewish Temple in AD 70.  This is what the Book of Revelation is about - the ending of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New Covenant and the establishing of the "Kingdom of Heaven" which Christ spoke of in the Gospels as being "imminent."  The book of revelation is wrought with what is called "Apocalyptic Symbolism" - it uses colorful symbols to portray realities, both spiritual and corporeal.  One thing to note when reading the Book of Apocalypse is when you see the word "earth," don't think of the whole world, but replace the word "earth," with "land."  What group of people called themselves "the land?" - none other than Israel - so "earth" is better interpretted as "the land," and "the land" is better seen as the land of Israel.  This is the true interpretation of the word "gi," which means "land."  Another word could have been used if the whole world was meant, and in a few places in the book it is used, showing that the writer knew the difference.  Another thing to notice is the very first verse of the book:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to make known to his servants the things which must shortly come to pass...  The wording in Greek used to describe this denotes haste, which is reiterated at the end of the book.  One reason why SO many Christians demand that the Book of Revelation is future is the erroneous belief that it was written in 96 AD when St. John was nearly 100 years old!  Nothing of overwhelming importance happened "shortly after" 96 AD, forcing people to place the meaning of the text way in the future. But, if the date of 68 AD is used for the correct date of authorship, we see one of the most profound events in history occuring "in a short time" after in 70 AD, when the Jews to this day lost their Temple and old form of worship, and the Kingdom of Christ began on a more profound level.  Both Biblical and external evidence strongly attest to the idea that the book was penned a bit before the Destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple, probably 67-68 AD.  We even see the Temple being portrayed in the book (although some say this means a future Temple, which given the mood of this book is unlikely).

The book of Revelation is a recapulation of the events surrounding 70 AD (it is seen time and time again in the book, such as the 7 kings:  Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come, but when he does come, he must remain only a short while  The king who "is" in none other than the infamous Nero, and the five who had fallen are Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula and Cladius, the one who is to come and remain only a "short while" could be seen as Galba, who reigned for only a matter of months, but it could also be seen as Vespasian if the "year of the three emperors" is not used, for he did remain "only a short time" in regards to the events of 70 AD) - the only future presented in the book occurs after chapter 19.  We, as Roman Catholics, believe that we are right at this moment living in the "millenium," that symbolic "1,000 year period" of the "Church Age."  We see in chapter 20 that the beast (Nero and the Roman Empire - it is not a coincidence that Nero Caesar adds up to the infamous 666 in when given in Hebrew numbers - or 616 as is seen in several ancient manuscripts, ever proving that Nero was meant) and the false prophet (the Pharasiac Sanhedrin) are cast into perdition BEFORE Satan is bound for the 1,000 years, the millenial "Church Age."  To believe that the "beast" and the "false prophet" are future figures such as Antichrist and not representations of 1st century people would be to place the millenium and bounding of Satan AFTER the time of Antichrist .  As Roman Catholics, that would be an impossibility to do if we continue to uphold the amillenialists position of St. Augustine, the one held by the Church for centuries.  To do so would be to become premillenialists, which the Church has proclaimed "cannot be taught safely."  Premillenialism is held by a vast amount of today's Protestants, namely of the Fundamentalist ilk.

Now, with all of this being said, the book of Revelation could be a foreshadowing of future events - that is it could be dual-prophetic in nature, which is not unheard of in Scripture at all.  But, we must understand that the primary fulfillment of this book was in the past, with the beginning of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.  This is why many Protestant Fundamentalists refuse to see this - they cannot be led to believe that Christ set up a Kingdom on this earth without questioning where that universal kingdom is - to do so would inevitably lead them to the Roman Catholic Church.

If you want to read one of the best books out there about this subject, pick up Rapture:  The End Time Error that Leaves the Bible Behind by David B. Currie.  This is a fascinating book that puts all of this in perspective.  I strongly recommend anyone to read it.

Thanks for a wonderfully informative post- it clears up a lot of confusing things for me. :)
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