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Greetings!

I was intrigued by a thought of Scipio's from another thread (the profanity/cussing one), but since it is a new topic I thought I would start a new thread.  As I'm new here, I hope doing such a thing (quoting from a different thread) is acceptable.  Anyways, here it is:

(12-16-2009, 12:07 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: [ -> ]Actually I doubt that monks have a real appreciation for creation precisely because they sequester themselves...seems like the cowards way out to me


"Oh. get me away from this sinful world so I don't offend God"


As if God were that easily offended in the first place...he knew what he was making, and it was not a meeting of the JayCees...it is a colorful world that includes colorful folks...some of whom use colorful language.

I have been drawn to monasticism my entire adult spiritual life.  I've never felt that it was running away, or a cowardly thing, for someone to become a monk.  I most readily admit, however, that individual monks may have the motivation that Scipio objects to, but not as a whole, not as an institution, and certainly not individual monks who truly understand their vocation.  I really appreciate what Thomas Merton has to say about this.  Unfortunately, the book is at home so I can't quote it (and he says it so well!), but the idea is that he was able to truly become intimate with other human beings by removing himself from a world that gives us false ideas of intimacy.  By looking into their own hearts, through contemplation, monks are able to find the place where God and all creation exist, and then are able to be truly, deeply, and spiritually connected to all creation, instead of only superficially, as one might be by rubbing shoulders at the pub.  Our true self exists in God, and by finding that we find not only each other, but the love that embraces all.

Also, I disagree that a monastic vocation comes from the fear of offending God in the sinful world.  In my experience of talking with monks, it comes from a desire to find unity with God.  Or, in some cases, the fact that God would simply not stop calling them, despite their intense desires to NOT be monks.  I believe that the prayers and contemplations of religious have far reaching consequences for the world as a whole, effects that are spiritual and so are not as readily seen as the effects of those that are called to an active life, but are just as, if not more so, important.

Thanks be to God for the silence of monks praying alone in their cells.  Thanks be to God for the communities who devotedly pray the Divine Office, day after day, year after year, raising their voices in song and praise and petition and prayer.  Thanks be to God for calling brothers and sisters to this holy and ancient vocation.

Pax vobiscum,
Jesse
I think those with different vocations would find others to be inconceivable.

I mean, a monk would probably see the married life as being lustful and worldly.

It is all about serving God and doing good.

I too am drawn towards monasticism. I feel it as giving up the temporal world and focusing on God.
(12-16-2009, 01:03 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]I think those with different vocations would find others to be inconceivable.

I mean, a monk would probably see the married life as being lustful and worldly.

It is all about serving God and doing good.

I too am drawn towards monasticism. I feel it as giving up the temporal world and focusing on God.

There are monastic communities that let you post on internet forums 33 times a day?  :laughing:

Just joking Rosarium...ahem..(clears throat)..anyway, back to the topic at hand...
Let's put it this way,  There are legitimate reasons one might choose the monastery!

And those people perform an IMPORTANT service...praying for the better part of the day and offering up sacrifices for themselves and the world is a wonderful service...NO DOUBT about it


But it is a lot easier to be a saintly sort in that environment, that was my point...if a person has a vocation in that direction...I am all for it...but many use that model as the one the rest of us should emulate.

Not interested in that.   I would rather live and die in the wide world that has been provided to me.

Now this does present problems...such as..I don't get to pray as much as a person dedicated to it...I forget to offer up my trials...etc...it takes more effort.

And the enticements available can make one fall...but if all one does all day is worry about falling,   what's the point?

And if someone is really worried about it...well living in the world could be an extreme sport....takes more gumption to face a fear---not all enter the monastery for this...and to me this would be a false reason to enter the monastery...

If one enters the monastery to perform the service of prayer and sacrifice...that's different...that IS saintly...and not an appearance.


The monastery can be a great place for reflection and the other items listed above....but don't use the monastery as a way to run away from the world, just as the priesthood should not be used to run away from sins committed already that pull at you...(I know of this happening...sad)


So, in sum, there are real reasons a person would choose to sequester themselves, and there are false reasons.  If you choose to, be sure it's legit.
Monastery's no place for cowards; or homosexuals.
(12-16-2009, 01:20 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: [ -> ]But it is a lot easier to be a saintly sort in that environment, that was my point...if a person has a vocation in that direction...I am all for it...but many use that model as the one the rest of us should emulate.

Not interested in that.   I would rather live and die in the wide world that has been provided to me.

I understand this.  Anytime anyone holds up their own vocation or personal spiritual path as the model, you know something isn't right.  This idea of personal vocations is something that drew me towards Catholicism early on.  I was raised in a religion that valued homogeny.  Everyone was supposed to be doing the same spiritual thing at the same time.  I simply didn't fit.  I think it is a beautiful grace that God recognizes how vastly different we are and calls us to the path that best fits us, both our desires but more importantly our needs.  So enjoy your wide world Scipio :)

I do think that monasticism has taken a beating in the modern world because of the modern focus on physicality, on tangibility.  Without tangible results it looks like a waste of time.  To the modern mind, too, giving up individuality and the pleasures that modernism offers seems rediculous.  Thomas Merton said that in his experience, the most pious monks were the ones that nobody noticed, because they just went along doing what they were supposed to without making a deal out of anything.  No ambition, no showing off, no resistance.  Just swallowed up in the body of Christ.  For part of me that sounds wonderful... but to the other part that's scary business.

My ramblings...

Pax vobiscum,
Jesse
Well western monachism is preety varied.
As for monastic military orders no they sure weren't cowards. And most weren't sainst either.
Some orders such as calatrava had married knights as members. Some like the hospitilars had whoe islands under their protection eh melita
Some like the mercedinians lived in the world to free christian captives from mohams by trade or breakout so. Western monachism is not just the cloistered trappist though they r there. St bernard of clairveux actually wrote the templar constitution and preety well founded military monachism with his in praise of the nee knighthood.
Just saying and one more thing the order of calatravas oath w
Ended with "upon my blade arab blood"
Not so polite is it LOL
(12-16-2009, 01:52 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]Well western monachism is preety varied.
As for monastic military orders no they sure weren't cowards. And most weren't sainst either.
Some orders such as calatrava had married knights as members. Some like the hospitilars had whoe islands under their protection eh melita
Some like the mercedinians lived in the world to free christian captives from mohams by trade or breakout so. Western monachism is not just the cloistered trappist though they r there. St bernard of clairveux actually wrote the templar constitution and preety well founded military monachism with his in praise of the nee knighthood.
Just saying and one more thing the order of calatravas oath w
Ended with "upon my blade arab blood"
Not so polite is it LOL

And let's not forget that monasteries have brewed and continue to brew some pretty excellent beer.  Thinking of you, of course, DevotedKnuckles...  The Christ in the Desert monastery in northern New Mexico brews a wonderful ale that is sold in a grocery store 2 blocks from my house.  Yes!  It has on the bottle a quote something like this:  he who drinks well, sleeps well.  He who sleeps well doesn't sin.

Pax vobiscum, or should I say, cervesia vobiscum...
Jesse
The whole monastic system is like being in the military.  At least if you're in a good monastery.  You've got reveille, formations, training, cadences, doctrine and preparation for combat with the enemy.  I think St. Benedict of Nursia himself based his rule and monastic enclosures on the Roman Army.   For monks, the enemy is more tangible and deadly: they fight the devil and his legions.
(12-16-2009, 01:52 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]Well western monachism is preety varied.
As for monastic military orders no they sure weren't cowards. And most weren't sainst either.
Some orders such as calatrava had married knights as members. Some like the hospitilars had whoe islands under their protection eh melita
Some like the mercedinians lived in the world to free christian captives from mohams by trade or breakout so. Western monachism is not just the cloistered trappist though they r there. St bernard of clairveux actually wrote the templar constitution and preety well founded military monachism with his in praise of the nee knighthood.

That there would still be some military orders, such as those, I would be pounding on their doors.



Quote:Just saying and one more thing the order of calatravas oath w
Ended with "upon my blade arab blood"
Not so polite is it LOL

Rubet ensis sanguine arabum -  now, where have I heard that before?    ;)
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