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(12-21-2009, 08:58 AM)matthew_talbot Wrote: [ -> ]So you're saying that The Mother of God was incorrect in the manner that she asked that this be accomplished?

My source what I read  does not have details. Unfortunately no one here feels necessity to quote with sources.

I could accept fully the official interpretation by the Magisterium

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...ma_en.html

and belive that according to the eternal order the Message about the conversion of Russia could happen several thousand years form now and will be fulfilling the message.  The above document affirm Strict-Catholic girls message that the consecration was done with the result what can be expected out of words and ceremonies.

To suppose that the Magisterium is lying is unacceptable for me.
(12-21-2009, 10:15 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]From what I understand, the consecration of "the world" to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, by Pope John Paul II and the bishops of the world on March 25, 1984, was not exactly what Our Lady asked for - but that, according to Sr. Lucia, it was accepted by Our Lady nonetheless. If you read the Old Testament and Moses' bartering with God, you know that God is not above negotiation.

After the 1984 consecration, the Soviet Union toppled in that country and people were free to worship again. No, that's not the same as "conversion" to the Catholic Faith. However, if the Russian Orthodox church comes into full communion with Rome (and I have a strong feeling it's going to happen in my lifetime), Fr. Gruner and others are going to have to seriously reconsider their positions.

- Lisa

If you read the old testament again, you'll see the example of Cain and Abel, the Lord God is VERY specific in what he accepts and doesnt accept. If God asks specifically for something, then nothing else will do. If God asks for the unblemished Lamb, then giving any other Lamb is an offense.


I found a good summary of this on the net.

Sister Lucy delivered these instructions to the Pope and has specifically detailed the requirements for and consequences of the consecration requested by God through Our Lady:

Russia must be specifically mentioned as the object of consecration;
The Pope must be joined with the world bishops in a public ceremony.

A "consecration" is an act by which a thing is separated from the common or profane and declared for sacred use. Whether it be for a chalice, altar, new church or bishop, a consecration is always specific. When a bishop needs to consecrate a new church, he does not consecrate every building in his diocese because it is not specific and does not single out the object of consecration.

The first promise associated with Russia's consecration is Russia's conversion. Conversion is the abandonment of atheism, paganism, heresy or schism and the acceptance of the Catholic Faith and the Church established by Christ.

The second promise is a period of peace. For Catholics (and heaven), "peace" does not refer to border agreements and disarmament treaties between nations, but the Reign of Christ the King over every man and nation. It will not only mean the end of conventional warfare but the end of all assaults upon God's laws fought by abortionists, pornographers, fornicators, communists, etc..



If you really think communism is gone in Russia, you need to have another look im afraid. Secondly Russia's errors are still very much widespread throughout the world.

And also, just because you have a 'feeling' that the Russian Orthodox will return to the Church, does not mean at all that it will happen..........
(12-21-2009, 10:51 AM)glgas Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-21-2009, 08:58 AM)matthew_talbot Wrote: [ -> ]So you're saying that The Mother of God was incorrect in the manner that she asked that this be accomplished?

My source what I read  does not have details. Unfortunately no one here feels necessity to quote with sources.

I could accept fully the official interpretation by the Magisterium

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...ma_en.html

and belive that according to the eternal order the Message about the conversion of Russia could happen several thousand years form now and will be fulfilling the message.  The above document affirm Strict-Catholic girls message that the consecration was done with the result what can be expected out of words and ceremonies.

To suppose that the Magisterium is lying is unacceptable for me.

glgas I dont think you quite understand what the Magisterium is...........look it up.

It certainly doesnt encompass some Cardinal's comments on a private revelation......lol
(12-21-2009, 10:51 AM)glgas Wrote: [ -> ]My source what I read  does not have details. Unfortunately no one here feels necessity to quote with sources.

Just google it......... :laughing: youll get enough 'sources' there..............its fatima for goodness sake.
Laszlo,
  I have a book written by Christopher A. Ferrara called "the secret still hidden". He is a lawyer and lays out the case as if he were going to trial. It has copies of the evidence and it is foot noted. If you would like me to send it to you,  get in touch with me, and I'll send it over.
tim
Even if the consecration of the whole world was acceptable as consecrating Russia, I wonder if we did it in time, because it looks to me like Russia's errors, (Communism) have indeed spread through the world, even if it goes by the name socialism or other names than communism.  I also do not think Communism is defeated in the world, we are jsut being lulled into a false sense of security.

(12-21-2009, 10:59 AM)tradmaverick Wrote: [ -> ]And also, just because you have a 'feeling' that the Russian Orthodox will return to the Church, does not mean at all that it will happen.........

Of course it doesn't. But my "feeling" doesn't come out of nowhere, but is based on recent news; namely the election of a new Patriarch and improvements in relations between Russia and Rome.

A question for you: IF the Russian church returns to full union with Rome, will that amount to the "conversion" Our Lady spoke of - in your opinion?

- Lisa

edited to add:

you Wrote:you read the old testament again, you'll see the example of Cain and Abel, the Lord God is VERY specific in what he accepts and doesnt accept. If God asks specifically for something, then nothing else will do. If God asks for the unblemished Lamb, then giving any other Lamb is an offense.

Liturgical vs. non-liturgical. Apples and oranges. God tells Abraham he will spare Sodom if he finds 50 righteous people there. Abraham talks him down to 10 people. I think the manner in which Russia gets consecrated can also fall in the category of "let's make a deal" -  whereas doctrine, liturgy, cannot.
(12-21-2009, 10:15 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]From what I understand, the consecration of "the world" to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, by Pope John Paul II and the bishops of the world on March 25, 1984, was not exactly what Our Lady asked for - but that, according to Sr. Lucia, it was accepted by Our Lady nonetheless. If you read the Old Testament and Moses' bartering with God, you know that God is not above negotiation.

After the 1984 consecration, the Soviet Union toppled in that country and people were free to worship again. No, that's not the same as "conversion" to the Catholic Faith. However, if the Russian Orthodox church comes into full communion with Rome (and I have a strong feeling it's going to happen in my lifetime), Fr. Gruner and others are going to have to seriously reconsider their positions.

- Lisa





I see a problem with your statement. Our Lady also said after it was done, there would be a period of peace given to the world. I dont see that now, not at all. And our priest (Traditional) said it would be given rapidly. 1984 till now is 25 years. So, respectfully, I must say this is not true. Perhaps the 1984 thing helped a little bit only.
(12-21-2009, 11:31 AM)HotRod Wrote: [ -> ]Even if the consecration of the whole world was acceptable as consecrating Russia, I wonder if we did it in time, because it looks to me like Russia's errors, (Communism) have indeed spread through the world, even if it goes by the name socialism or other names than communism.  I also do not think Communism is defeated in the world, we are jsut being lulled into a false sense of security.




Exactally.  :pray:
(12-21-2009, 11:21 AM)timoose Wrote: [ -> ]Laszlo,
  I have a book written by Christopher A. Ferrara called "the secret still hidden". He is a lawyer and lays out the case as if he were going to trial. It has copies of the evidence and it is foot noted. If you would like me to send it to you,  get in touch with me, and I'll send it over.
tim





I have read it too. I think it presents the most complete truth in this. Russia is not yet consecrated.
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