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(12-28-2009, 07:38 AM)glgas Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 12:31 AM)DrBombay Wrote: [ -> ]keep praying to her, there are too many positive experiences attributed to her intercession to doubt her existence.  many "scholars" have educated themselves into imbecility. 

I hate to say you but a Catholic and human message would be the argument which proves that:

- Philomena is name, not just part of a pious sentence
- the inscription refers to the remnant of the bones
- the bones refer to martyrdom.

- and most importantly to explain what is the reason of the public veneration of a Saint whose veneration started only in the 19th Century,  about whom we know nothing and even her name is dubious?

The Church approved and revoked her veneration applying he binding and loosing power. Is it imbecile to believe the exact words of Our Lord about this power?

I don't believe the Church has yet prohibited veneration of St. Philomena.  She's just been removed from the liturgical calendar.  Like St. Christopher and other saints removed, you can still pray to them privately if you choose.

I'm not a big fan of pious hagiography because I think a lot of it is silly and makes Catholics look silly, but there have been miracles attributed to the intercession of St. Philomena.  I don't think that can be denied.  So, if she's not an actual historical person, how is this explained?  God can answer prayers however he wants, but why would he do so and encourage devotion to a non-existent saint?
(12-28-2009, 03:18 PM)glgas Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 03:14 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 03:06 PM)glgas Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 01:55 PM)Antonius Block Wrote: [ -> ]Philoumena is the feminine present passive participle of philo, meaning "one-being-loved," or more succintly, "beloved."

Is this present passive participle one word of two words? Do you have any image of the inscript?

If I recall correctly, the feminine participle is just one word: "philoumene" from the verb "philo".

Here is the image of the three times with the inscription from a pro existence site

http://www.philomena.org/patroness.asp

Vetus, you're right, the last letter of the feminine would be an eta, not an alpha.

Glgas: the inscription on the tomb, from the website you link to, has the name as "Filumena." The sight says its a Latin name meaning "daughter of light." That seems unlikely to me (although I'm not an expert) because "daughter of light" would be "filia luminis." The stem changes from lumen to lumin-. My guess is that Filumena is simply a vulgar Latinization of the Greek Philoumene (Φιλουμένη), as suggested by the more-correct English rendering Philomena.

Anybody who knows better, please correct me.
(12-28-2009, 06:28 PM)Antonius Block Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 03:18 PM)glgas Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 03:14 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 03:06 PM)glgas Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 01:55 PM)Antonius Block Wrote: [ -> ]Philoumena is the feminine present passive participle of philo, meaning "one-being-loved," or more succintly, "beloved."

Is this present passive participle one word of two words? Do you have any image of the inscript?

If I recall correctly, the feminine participle is just one word: "philoumene" from the verb "philo".

Here is the image of the three times with the inscription from a pro existence site

http://www.philomena.org/patroness.asp

Vetus, you're right, the last letter of the feminine would be an eta, not an alpha.

Glgas: the inscription on the tomb, from the website you link to, has the name as "Filumena." The sight says its a Latin name meaning "daughter of light." That seems unlikely to me (although I'm not an expert) because "daughter of light" would be "filia luminis." The stem changes from lumen to lumin-. My guess is that Filumena is simply a vulgar Latinization of the Greek Philoumene (Φιλουμένη), as suggested by the more-correct English rendering Philomena.

Anybody who knows better, please correct me.
If it were being used in a sentence, then the eta would be used, however, it is common for words turned into female names to have a long alpha for the last letter. You can see this with the name Cleopatra, for instance, which is taken from the Greek "kleos" and "patres". Also, the name Agatha, since you mentioned it  :); technically, it ought to be Agathe (eta), but the alpha is used instead to turn it into a name. Yet another proof, as I see it, that is the name of a person and not a description.
(12-28-2009, 06:28 PM)Antonius Block Wrote: [ -> ]Glgas: the inscription on the tomb, from the website you link to, has the name as "Filumena." The sight says its a Latin name meaning "daughter of light." That seems unlikely to me (although I'm not an expert) because "daughter of light" would be "filia luminis." The stem changes from lumen to lumin-. My guess is that Filumena is simply a vulgar Latinization of the Greek Philoumene (Φιλουμένη), as suggested by the more-correct English rendering Philomena.

Anybody who knows better, please correct me.

The sequence in the space or time is important. The Inscription said:LUMENA PAXTE CUM FI
The 19th Century reader rearranged it as Pax Tecum Filumena

8 Iunii 1805
Dono dedi Ven. Ecclesiae Archipresbyterali terrae Mugnano Dioecesis Nolanae corpus Sanctae Christi Martyris FILUMENAE
Nominis proprii sic picti in tribus Tabulis laterariis cinabro LUMENA PAXTE CUM FI
in pulverem et in fragminaactum per me infrascriptum Custodem extractum cum vasculo vitreo fracto ex Coemeterio Priscillae Via Salaria Nova die 25 maii 1802, quod collocavi in capsula lignea charta colorata cooperta et consignavi Illmo Dominico Caesari pro Illmo et Rmo D. Bartholomaeo de Caesare Epo Potentino.
HYACINTHUS PONZETTI, Custos.

We have no evidence weather it was right or not. In the 19th Century the Church with her binding and losing power approved the interpretation, in the 20th Century the same Church revoked it. Neither decision is infallible. Theologically the question is important about the infallibility of the approval of the veneration, it is not infallible. There are very few infallible dogmas.
(12-28-2009, 06:48 PM)Anastasia Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 06:28 PM)Antonius Block Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 03:18 PM)glgas Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 03:14 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 03:06 PM)glgas Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 01:55 PM)Antonius Block Wrote: [ -> ]Philoumena is the feminine present passive participle of philo, meaning "one-being-loved," or more succintly, "beloved."

Is this present passive participle one word of two words? Do you have any image of the inscript?

If I recall correctly, the feminine participle is just one word: "philoumene" from the verb "philo".

Here is the image of the three times with the inscription from a pro existence site

http://www.philomena.org/patroness.asp

Vetus, you're right, the last letter of the feminine would be an eta, not an alpha.

Glgas: the inscription on the tomb, from the website you link to, has the name as "Filumena." The sight says its a Latin name meaning "daughter of light." That seems unlikely to me (although I'm not an expert) because "daughter of light" would be "filia luminis." The stem changes from lumen to lumin-. My guess is that Filumena is simply a vulgar Latinization of the Greek Philoumene (Φιλουμένη), as suggested by the more-correct English rendering Philomena.

Anybody who knows better, please correct me.
If it were being used in a sentence, then the eta would be used, however, it is common for words turned into female names to have a long alpha for the last letter. You can see this with the name Cleopatra, for instance, which is taken from the Greek "kleos" and "patres". Also, the name Agatha, since you mentioned it  :); technically, it ought to be Agathe (eta), but the alpha is used instead to turn it into a name. Yet another proof, as I see it, that is the name of a person and not a description.

Ah, although Cleopatra would properly have an alpha rather than an eta, because it comes after rho  :)! And as far as Agatha, I was referring to the English name, derived from the Greek, agathe (eta), though you are right.

I do believe that Latinizations of Greek feminine names typically replaced the eta with a Latin A, to make them fit the Latin declension system.

No qualms whatsoever, though, with your point that Filumena/Philoumene/Philomena is a name and not a description.

Sorry to the OP for highjacking this conversation in order to be pedantic.
No apologies necessary, the diversion was fascinating.
(12-28-2009, 07:20 PM)Antonius Block Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 06:48 PM)Anastasia Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 06:28 PM)Antonius Block Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 03:18 PM)glgas Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 03:14 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 03:06 PM)glgas Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-28-2009, 01:55 PM)Antonius Block Wrote: [ -> ]Philoumena is the feminine present passive participle of philo, meaning "one-being-loved," or more succintly, "beloved."

Is this present passive participle one word of two words? Do you have any image of the inscript?

If I recall correctly, the feminine participle is just one word: "philoumene" from the verb "philo".

Here is the image of the three times with the inscription from a pro existence site

http://www.philomena.org/patroness.asp

Vetus, you're right, the last letter of the feminine would be an eta, not an alpha.

Glgas: the inscription on the tomb, from the website you link to, has the name as "Filumena." The sight says its a Latin name meaning "daughter of light." That seems unlikely to me (although I'm not an expert) because "daughter of light" would be "filia luminis." The stem changes from lumen to lumin-. My guess is that Filumena is simply a vulgar Latinization of the Greek Philoumene (Φιλουμένη), as suggested by the more-correct English rendering Philomena.

Anybody who knows better, please correct me.
If it were being used in a sentence, then the eta would be used, however, it is common for words turned into female names to have a long alpha for the last letter. You can see this with the name Cleopatra, for instance, which is taken from the Greek "kleos" and "patres". Also, the name Agatha, since you mentioned it  :); technically, it ought to be Agathe (eta), but the alpha is used instead to turn it into a name. Yet another proof, as I see it, that is the name of a person and not a description.

Ah, although Cleopatra would properly have an alpha rather than an eta, because it comes after rho  :)! And as far as Agatha, I was referring to the English name, derived from the Greek, agathe (eta), though you are right.

I do believe that Latinizations of Greek feminine names typically replaced the eta with a Latin A, to make them fit the Latin declension system.

No qualms whatsoever, though, with your point that Filumena/Philoumene/Philomena is a name and not a description.

Sorry to the OP for highjacking this conversation in order to be pedantic.
The alpha-after-epsilon/iota/rho rule isn't absolute, patres is one of the starnge exceptions; one of the more endearing (though maddening) things about Greek is that the more common a word is, the more it gets to break the rules. I think by this time, though, we've demolished the theory that Philomena isn't a name!
(12-27-2009, 08:59 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]I know EWTN promotes her devotion (I've got the litany, rosary, cord of St. Philomena, and a music tape by Simonetta).

Wow. I remember that episode well, Lisa.

[Image: wi105.jpg]

BTW, I still have the Simonetta cd... er, somewhere. :laughing:
(12-28-2009, 02:08 PM)Anastasia Wrote: [ -> ]Quite correct. And, it must be noted that the meaning of the word Philomena does not mean it can't have been a real name: early Christian history is full of personal names like that. Irene means "peace", Basil(eus) means "king", Dorothea means "gift of God", etc. Even today, people name their kids "Precious", so it doesn't follow that Philomena cannot have been a real name. Also, the burial in a catacomb, with an inscription, creates a strong presumption that she was honored by the community, very likely a martyr. Not a mountain of evidence to support it, but no less than what archeologists have for other burial sites. Historians are expected to use their heads, and make deductions; it isn't necessary to have every detail spelled out for them.
And, as I think someone noted: she was not unsainted, just not put into the calendar.  Not all saints are celebrated by having a certain day set aside. But they are no less saints.

Also, holy people were often given "nicknames." For example, at least according Bl. Catherine Anne Emmerich's writings on the Passion, Sts. Veronica and Longinus were called those names by the Christian community in reference to their deeds, but their brith names were something else (Cassius for St. Longinus, and I forget St. Veronica's).
St. Philomena is a great, great Saint. There is a wealth of information about her you can read here: http://www.catholictradition.org/Saints/philomena.htm
You can also rely on the example, testimonies, and veneration of her by such great men as St. John Vianney, Pope Leo XII, Pope Gregory XVI, Pope Pius IX, Leo XIII, and Pope St. Pius X. A detailed account of her life was miraculously given to 3 separate people and is available at the above website.
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