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(01-12-2010, 11:44 AM)CrusaderKing Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-12-2010, 10:05 AM)glgas Wrote: [ -> ]Please quote it. 

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13curae.htm

Quote:36. Wherefore, strictly adhering, in this matter, to the decrees of the pontiffs, our predecessors, and confirming them most fully, and, as it were, renewing them by our authority, of our own initiative and certain knowledge, we pronounce and declare that ordinations carried out according to the Anglican rite have been, and are, absolutely null and utterly void

Can't get more Magisterial than that.  They worship a piece of bread.
(01-12-2010, 12:52 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: [ -> ]Can't get more Magisterial than that.  They worship a piece of bread.

As a matter of fact they do not worship the Eucharist. Just refer my experience: they had no note that non Anglicans should not participate in their Eucharistic Communion, only that those outside of the Community should not participate in the Blessing. I do not know the exact why, but experienced the fact.

I never doubted that the Anglicans are outside the Church, or stated that they share the Church in the fullness of the sacraments. The ordinations and consequently their Eucharist are not valid. However we shall approach and address them as with high probability Christ would do, and as the Church does: They are our separated brethren.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_counc...io_en.html
Quote:24. Now that we have briefly set out the conditions for ecumenical action and the principles by which it is to be directed, we look with confidence to the future. This Sacred Council exhorts the faithful to refrain from superficiality and imprudent zeal, which can hinder real progress toward unity. Their ecumenical action must be fully and sincerely Catholic, that is to say, faithful to the truth which we have received from the apostles and Fathers of the Church, in harmony with the faith which the Catholic Church has always professed, and at the same time directed toward that fullness to which Our Lord wills His Body to grow in the course of time.

It is the urgent wish of this Holy Council that the measures undertaken by the sons of the Catholic Church should develop in conjunction with those of our separated brethren so that no obstacle be put in the ways of divine Providence and no preconceived judgments impair the future inspirations of the Holy Spirit. The Council moreover professes its awareness that human powers and capacities cannot achieve this holy objective-the reconciling of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ. It is because of this that the Council rests all its hope on the prayer of Christ for the Church, on our Father's love for us, and on the power of the Holy Spirit. "And hope does not disappoint, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us

and also

Quote:13 ... Among those in which Catholic traditions and institutions in part continue to exist, the Anglican Communion occupies a special place.

This is not infallibly but still binding decree., and as a matter of fact more 'Magisterial' than Leo XIII's  Encyclical (with the acceptance that it is binding too) The fact that the Anglicans/Episcopalians are not sacramental Church (those priest who united are ordained w/o condition), should not determine our relationship toward us, and this is the decree of the Unitatis Redigrentatio.

glgas, in my opinion, you're a libreal.  Just like most liberals and modernists, you put Vatican II above anything that came before it.  You misuse "separated brethren", and, quite frankly you speak out of both sides of your mouth.

You said:

Quote:I personally do not believe that the Anglican Community regardless of they want the unity or not is against Jesus Christ. They worship God as they understand God, and God who shines His sun even on the sinners, accepts them, so neither us have the rights to reject them.  We are not the Magisterium or independent depository of the truth.

Are heretics against the Truth?  Is Christ the Truth?  In that sense, yes, they are against Christ and His Church.  The animists worship God as they understand God.

Yet you say no one has the right to reject heretics?  To reject heresy?

Yes, we not only have the right, but the duty to reject it.  To not believe the errors they believe, and to not engage in false worship with them.  The Magisterium has spoken on this and all heresies whether you like it or not.

Now, on the other hand, of course we do not reject them as human beings despite the fact they are heretics.  God wants their salvation, too, and we treat them with the respect that any human being deserves.  But we do not engage in false worship with them or somehow see their false religion as salvatory in any way.

So, stop promoting false worship on this forum by advertising heretical services.  Thank you.

(01-12-2010, 07:23 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: [ -> ]glgas, in my opinion, you're a libreal.  Just like most liberals and modernists, you put Vatican II above anything that came before it.  You misuse "separated brethren", and, quite frankly you speak out of both sides of your mouth.

There were significant changes in the 20th Century. Before that at least in the Catholic Countries, or Catholic Communities (as villages, ecen counties or states) the Church had real ruling power, the Church had influence about the distribution of the information and the rules what involved the community (e.g. related to the schools).

During the 20th Century this essentially changed. Everywhere, regardless of the majority, godless forces took over the power, they distribute the information (media) they make the decision about the rules involving the communities (e.g. the religuion and morality is excluded from the schools and public life).

In the previous situation this was expedient to concentrate on the heresy and errors, in some way they were under the influence of the Church. For today this influence disappeared, so when you judge them, you judge ones who are outside of our influence, about whom the judgment belongs to Jesus Christ and to the end of the world.

Think it over. This Anglican community is praying reverently. The prayer has its grace calling power, so by the grace of the Holy Spirit they can get a new rector, or their rector may change his mind and they can be united with the true Church. What is the reason to declare them heretics, and what is the reason to denounce Vatican II which understood that the world was changed, and other aspects of the truth shall be emphasized, than the ones emphasized for our forefathers.

We never had the knowledge of God, newer saw the full truth in its entirety, only a segment of it. In the time of Leo XIII it may have some advantage to look for the Anglicans as heretics, the Church was still powerfull in worldly matter too. Today we need any help againt the enemy what we can get from good people, so it is more useful to call the other side of the picture: they are our brethren in Christ.

If you do not understand, I am sorry. This is not moral relativism, only that acknowledgment that our knowledge (even about the mores) is limited/partial, so time to time other aspect of the same rules should be emphasized.

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