FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: ...and so, nothing changes.
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
http://unavoce-nwa.blogspot.com/2010/01/...-news.html


January 18, 2010
No News is Bad News...?
It has been three months since Bishop Taylor has received the letter from Una Voce of NWA. My understanding is that if a bishop does not reply in writing within 90 days of a written request, the answer is "No". So, my assumption is that the answer to the three questions which were asked below is in the negative: 1. May the Latin Mass faithful of NWA have one Mass in the Extraordinary Form once each Sunday (No). 2. If the response to the first question is "no", then may we seek assistance from outside the Diocese from others such as FSSP, Institute of Christ the King, etc (No). 3. May a priest offer the Mass in the Ordinary Form in Latin, ad orientem, in the Little Rock Diocese (No). We now await a response from the Pontifical Commission of Ecclesia Dei.
Posted by JKR



How many are your number making this request?
Why are the faithful asking the bishop?  I thought Summorum Pontificum eliminated the need for episcopal "permission".  Any priest may offer the TLM on his own initiative (privately).  If a number (whatever that means) of parishoners ask their pastor/priest for the TLM he (the pastor/priest) must make it available to them on a regular basis (within common sense parameters).

Just the thought of the laity, groveling with hand outstreatched like a beggar, pleading to the bishop for the TLM makes me very angry  >:( .  I'm sure there is at least one priest in their Diocese who would offer a TLM sometime somewhere.  If not, then have an outside priest do an occasional "visit" to a certain parish on a regular basis and offer the TLM for the faithful. 
Mike,

You're right about how SP is supposed to work.  The faithful ask their pastor for it.  If the pastor says no, then the pastor is not/cannot meet the legitimate  needs of his parishioners and they have the right to appeal to the bishop.  If the bishop doesn't resolve the problem, then the people can get Ecclesia Dei involved.

It seems simple, but in practice it's usually a lot more complicated as I'm sure you know.  A common problem it seems is when one priest in a parish is willing to offer the TLM, but the pastor refuses to permit it.  Then the priest is stuck with offering the TLM "privately".  How SP is worded this creates a situation where the priest can offer the TLM, but he can't advertise it in any way and he may not say more than one Mass in a day in order to say the TLM.  So if the priest must say Mass publicly that day (Sunday Mass, wedding, whatever), there can't be a TLM.  People can go to these private Masses if they "spontaneously" request to attend..  This leads to a quasi-secret weekday Latin Mass underground within the parish which will hopefully grow until the pastor just can't take being woken up by the other priest getting in the shower at 4:30 every morning and gives in to having a public Mass.  And there will be much rejoicing and novenas made in thanksgiving to almighty God.

priests know that if they go against the bishop's wishes by saying the TLM, or in other ways, he can punish them by moving them every year, by assigning them to the most troubled parish within the diocese, denying them vacation time when they ask for it, etc.

the pope needs to write another letter to the bishops telling them he expects to see more TLMs offered to the faithful, at convenient times and preferably on Sundays, and that no bishop is allowed to refuse a request for a TLM that the faithful may attend.  when, or whether, he'll do that remains to be seen, and whether he'll follow up with his own punishments for disobedient bishops also remains to be seen. 

i think sending two or three of the mouthier German bishops, like Schonborn, to dioceses in remote parts of Africa, the Philippines, etc., might put a stop to the bishops' disobedience.  most people who have always lived in the northern hemisphere don't tolerate heat well, or monsoons or siroccos, and most who've lived in affluent countries also have trouble living in the midst of poverty and even more trouble living where muslims are attacking Christians. 

i'd also like to see the Pope celebrate a TLM that's widely broadcast around the world.  how about Easter 2010, Your Holiness?



Can we force a priest to say a TLM if he doesn't want to though? Or if he doesn't know how? And how many people are requesting the Latin Mass? If a petition is presented both bishop and priest will take notice. Otherwise....

In the past two years at my parish we've had ONE person call up and request a TLM for the repose of his mother's soul. I don't know what he expected Father to do .. say a Latin Mass just for him? There are two Masses said daily (N.O). Could our priest have turned one of those Masses into a TLM? That's impossible.

Anyway, our pastor was polite and told the man he would first have to ask permission of our bishop. The man was not happy and hung up the phone. I just don't know how it works in practical terms to be honest. It would seem that a significant number of people would have to show interest - or perhaps the Pope can mandate that one Mass in the Sunday time slot be a TLM.

Because how can non-trad Catholics under 40 request a Mass they've had zero exposure to? A Mass they've had no opportunity to appreciate the value of? The best solution now is to have young seminarians required to learn the TLM. The future will take care of itself.

- Lisa
I think if the bishop is not a TLM fan, then there are several ways for them to squash it while remaining within the letter of SP; in addition some of the things noted above, one way is by requiring a level of Latin proficiency that would require an extended period of schooling (i.e., away from the parish and diocese).

On the other hand, the average middle-aged NO priest hasn't got the knowledge to perform TLM, probably doesn't have the vestments, and, to boot, the layout of the high-school-auditorium-looking NO church is going to have a freestanding altar and no altar rail, at the least.  So this just can't be flipped on like a switch.

But - back on the other hand again - I'd bet my last donut that any liturgical/rubrical change that the USCCB agreed with would be adopted at lightning speed nationwide.
(01-19-2010, 09:04 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: [ -> ]I think if the bishop is not a TLM fan, then there are several ways for them to squash it while remaining within the letter of SP; in addition some of the things noted above, one way is by requiring a level of Latin proficiency that would require an extended period of schooling (i.e., away from the parish and diocese).

On the other hand, the average middle-aged NO priest hasn't got the knowledge to perform TLM, probably doesn't have the vestments, and, to boot, the layout of the high-school-auditorium-looking NO church is going to have a freestanding altar and no altar rail, at the least.  So this just can't be flipped on like a switch.

But - back on the other hand again - I'd bet my last donut that any liturgical/rubrical change that the USCCB agreed with would be adopted at lightning speed nationwide.

So true, so very true >:(
In NW Arkansas, there's quite a significant number of people requesting the TLM.  Instead, we got another Spanish language Mass.  There's at least one priest in my parish that is very well versed in the TLM, so that isn't the problem.  There's another that is working his way up from the Low Mass, also, so the number of excuses are rapidly dwindling.

We'll see what Ecclesia Dei has to say.
This is why the priesthood is such a mess. If a priest knows how to say a TLM, he should just say it. Priests are such wimps. They need to start standing up to bishops. They have a right in the Latin rite to say the TLM, any time and any day they feel like it. A pastor can say the TLM daily for his parish and on Sunday without telling the bishop. It's that simple. Things will never change until priests take matters into their own hands and create a dust up across America. A pastor is the chief liturgist for his parish and they have more power than they think.