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Quote:This branch of Christianity [The Charismatic Movement] now is second in size to the Roman Catholic Church. In 2000, 27 percent of all Christians (approximately 537 million) were part of the renewal ... charismatics 176 million, and neocharismatics 295 million. The combined movements are growing at the rate of 9 million per year, with the total at approximately 571 million in mid-2004.


Notes:
These numbers include Catholics. 
The Charismatic Movement began in 1960 for Protestants and 1967 for Catholics.  Making this movement between 43 and 50 years old.

Taken from The Encyclopedia of Penecostal & Charismatic Christianity

I just read this and thought it was very interesting. 

(01-27-2010, 04:56 PM)Ignatius_of_Loyola Wrote: [ -> ]The Charismatic Movement began in 1960 for Protestants and 1967 for Catholics.  Making this movement between 43 and 50 years old.

Really? That sounds too late for Protestants and too early for Catholics. What's the difference between charismatics and Pentecostals? I thought all Pentecostals were charismatics, though not all charismatics were Pentecostals, which would make the Protestant charismatic movement quite a bit older (late 19th, early 20th century, I think).

And did the Catholic charismatics really get their start in '67? I guess I could believe it, it just seems like VII wouldn't have had time to spawn such things at that date.
(01-27-2010, 06:08 PM)Antonius Block Wrote: [ -> ]And did the Catholic charismatics really get their start in '67? I guess I could believe it, it just seems like VII wouldn't have had time to spawn such things at that date.
Modernism was well alive throughout the 50's and 60's. It  gained steam in the early 60's and VII made it the new religion. Things in the Church started falling apart immediately after 65.
(01-27-2010, 06:25 PM)SaintRafael Wrote: [ -> ]Modernism was well alive throughout the 50's and 60's. It  gained steam in the early 60's and VII made it the new religion. Things in the Church started falling apart immediately after 65.

The modernism was so powerful in 1910 that St Pius X ordered every priest to take the anti modernist oath

http://www.franciscan-archive.org/bullarium/oath.html

I do not see any connection between the modernism and the charismatic movement. The former is intellectual, the later emotional.

From the first letter of Corinthians it is evident that the charismatic movement was either present and somewhat criticized in St Paul's timeIt is not necessarily bad to express emotions in community.

A few years ago I attended a charismatic session in a Catholic Church. They sang hymns calling the Holy Spirit to come, a woman made a lecture about the Eucharist and the spiritual communion, and they concluded with a prayer. It was strange ro me to command the Holy Spirit to come, but the hymns are

Veni Sancte Spiritus

Veni Creator Spiritus

also I do not like the guitar with hymns, but I have no evidence that Jesus would reject it

St Paul wrote

Phil 1:14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, growing confident by my bands, are much more bold to speak the word of God without fear. 15 Some indeed, even out of envy and contention; but some also for good will preach Christ. 16 Some out of charity, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 17 And some out of contention preach Christ not sincerely: supposing that they raise affliction to my bands. 18 But what then? So that by all means, whether by occasion, or by truth, Christ be preached: in this also I rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

If neither the envy or contention counts, why would the guitar count?

Sure, and why are they growing?  They actually believe in something. It's completely wrong, but they believe it.

As compared to, oh, I dunno, Catholicism as practiced in most NO parishes - a watery mass of feel-good pabulum.

I posted here a ways back about an article in the local paper about how the Church was losing Hispanics to Islam, and that interviews of those who had left the Church showed that what principally drove them was a desire for more discipline.

This is just another example.....making the Faith fit the believers is meaningless.....doctrinal rigor is the path for maintaining the Church.
(01-27-2010, 09:43 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: [ -> ]This is just another example.....making the Faith fit the believers is meaningless.....doctrinal rigor is the path for maintaining the Church.

Amen to that! 
.....can I get an Amen brothers and sisters? LOL

seriously though....DesparatelySeeking the truth is speaking.
The people are starving, spiritually starving, so they will take what food they can get.

All the same, better junk food than nothing.

Also, I notice that many Catholic Charismatics are in fact at odds with the typical NO parish. The typical NO parish takes the demystifying, psychologizing, rationalizing view to everything, making it a sort of secular talk, a sort of Dr. Phil thing, whereas a lot of Charismatics are very devoted to Eucharistic adoration and  to the Rosary. I think thatmany of them were alienated from the institutional direction of the Church because of liturgical changes, and their thirst for religion sent them looking for devotional exercises outside of the Mass. Thus, they may be lacking in "liturgical" education, and may be confused about many ideas, but the ones I have met are very devout people who spend a lot of hours in the adoration chapel of our church and pray the rosary before Mass.
(01-28-2010, 10:36 AM)maldon Wrote: [ -> ]The people are starving, spiritually starving, so they will take what food they can get.

All the same, better junk food than nothing.

Also, I notice that many Catholic Charismatics are in fact at odds with the typical NO parish. The typical NO parish takes the demystifying, psychologizing, rationalizing view to everything, making it a sort of secular talk, a sort of Dr. Phil thing, whereas a lot of Charismatics are very devoted to Eucharistic adoration and  to the Rosary. I think thatmany of them were alienated from the institutional direction of the Church because of liturgical changes, and their thirst for religion sent them looking for devotional exercises outside of the Mass. Thus, they may be lacking in "liturgical" education, and may be confused about many ideas, but the ones I have met are very devout people who spend a lot of hours in the adoration chapel of our church and pray the rosary before Mass.

Maldon, I totally agree.  For so many people, myself and my husband included, the Charismatic movement is what enabled us to discover our faith in the first place.  Especially the Rosary and the Eucharist as you said.  Heck, I was healed of a fainting disorder during a Charismatic prayer meeting.  Doctor verified and everything.  Even though it's not my thing anymore, I'm very grateful for the Charismatic movement in the Church.  I spent 4-5 years heavily involved in it.  Any time people want to pray together, it ought to be encouraged, even if you don't like their music.  Charismatic prayer as practiced in my experience isn't about doctrine/catechesis.  It doesn't have to be.  It is more in the heart than in the mind, which I suspect is why it appeals to women especially.  That's why you really can have Catholic and Protestant folks come together for it without issue, but I've noticed a distinct Marian spirituality to most Catholic groups.  Usually what would happen is there'd be some singing, then praying to the Holy Spirit for His inspiration.  Then sometimes people would feel led to read aloud a certain Scripture or share a "word".  Some groups will do a guided meditation on a passage of Scripture or a writing of one of the saints.  Praying over people is Biblical.  Sometimes people would pray in toungues during this time, but if nobody could interpret it then they stopped.  Sometimes I do think traditionalists can focus over much on the doctrine and the knowledge of the faith, and how the liturgy ought to be perfectly executed  to the exclusion of the development of the interior life.

Maybe Charismatic-style Catholicism really is "Catholic lite" or what have you.  I think that's okay, as long as it's kept in perspective.  Especially early in the spiritual life, I think we need some sort of emotional consolation/connection.  If you don't find it yet in the Mass, I don't see the problem with seeking it in these sorts of prayer groups.  It's part of our humanness.  Being in a group helps because it teaches you HOW to pray and to recognize the promptings of the Spirit.  It's not something that we're born knowing, especially if you don't have an example in everyday life.  It's basically people just inviting the Holy Spirit into their lives.  It sounds simplstic, and it is.  I don't think any real Catholic Charismatic would claim that what they do is more important than the Sacraments or anything like that.  But I know for me, I needed milk and the "candy" before I could appreciate the solid food.  The dangers of emotionalism etc. are real, and that's why every Charismatic group ought to be directed by a priest.  Just about any guide to running such a group will tell you this.