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I am always looking for new ways to explain to NO's the fundamental differences between Traditional Catholicism and Vatican II Catholicism in soundbytes, because that is usually about as much time as you have, but an invitation to have them just take a look at two videos of different Benedictine Monasteries could be effective.

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So true.  Thank you for posting these.
Thanks for posting these videos together.
The contrast shows the essential difference between Traditional Catholicism and NO Catholicism, that is the emphasis on God as opposed to the emphasis on humanity.
The bulk of the traditional sisters' video shows their work of objective worship.
The NO sisters' video talks mostly about welcoming guests, living together and helping others.
I am not going to say the NO sisters are not sincere, but it really is a change from what the religious life, especially monastic life was all about.
Let's imagine what St. Benedict would say when viewing these videos?
Any idea what his reaction might be?

i'm sure St. Benedict would be shocked at all the changes since the 12th century.

but i have to say, in defense of Benedictines, that the sisters, and brothers, may not all wear the habit today but they all sing the Hours in choir stalls like they always have. 

i could take you to a big beautiful old convent about 150 miles from here, with an equally big, beautiful monastery up the road a ways. in the fifties and sixties, the convent had a boarding school for girls and a two year college for girls (both have long been closed) while the monastery had a boarding school for boys and a four-year college, which i think was coed.  today the monastery just has a coed boarding school. 

both the monastery and the convent depend on holding conferences and retreats for income, plus donations from alumni and friends.  the monastery also has an historic attraction with gift shop and the monks bake and sell bread there, in addition to books, nice religious articles and some truly awful but amusing Catholic kitsch.  some of the younger sisters have jobs teaching in public schools, working as nurses and doctors, presumably donate their salary to the order.  the monastery and convent each have some very elderly religious to care for, a few new vocations, a lot of sisters and brothers well past sixty.

a lot of people left religious life after Vatican II so staffing schools was surely a problem in many places.  i think that in this area, the enrollment dropped first, since so many lay people left the Church and quit sending their kids to Catholic schools.  i think they still had enough teachers for the high schools, at least. 

you have to wonder how long old monasteries and convents will be able to keep up large facilities with fewer vocations and less income.  it's a sad situation.  people from the nearest town and probably the surrounding area now attend Mass at the convent and monastery on Sundays so they get some donations from them.  there''s also a huge old church in the town, though.  the area had a large German Catholic population probably a hundred years ago; the church and the buildings at the convent and monastery are at least that old.  the number of Catholics in the area is increasing but they're mostly retirees so i don't think the schools will be revived.

my point is that i'm not sure the Benedictine sisters and brothers i know as communities had any choice but to focus on "welcoming guests, living together and helping others" to support themselves, since the schools closed, and that they do carry out their worship as they did before. 

i haven't watched the videos yet but are the traditional sisters cloistered?  because that makes a big difference and it may be that the NO sisters shown were never cloistered, but were teaching sisters, like the ones i know.  the Church has always had a place for cloistered religious and for active religious as well.  let's hope vocations increase and orders continue to exist.






I find it interesting to compare the ages of the sisters in each order.  One is drawing new members... one clearly isn't.
(01-29-2010, 09:03 AM)i.p.i. Wrote: [ -> ]i'm sure St. Benedict would be shocked at all the changes since the 12th century.

I'm sure he'd be more than shocked.
Quote:but i have to say, in defense of Benedictines, that the sisters, and brothers, may not all wear the habit today but they all sing the Hours in choir stalls like they always have. 

So what?  Most Benedictines have utterly betrayed the Rule of St. Benedict even to the point of making an effeminate translation more recently.
Quote:i could take you to a big beautiful old convent about 150 miles from here, with an equally big, beautiful monastery up the road a ways. in the fifties and sixties, the convent had a boarding school for girls and a two year college for girls (both have long been closed) while the monastery had a boarding school for boys and a four-year college, which i think was coed.  today the monastery just has a coed boarding school. 

both the monastery and the convent depend on holding conferences and retreats for income, plus donations from alumni and friends.  the monastery also has an historic attraction with gift shop and the monks bake and sell bread there, in addition to books, nice religious articles and some truly awful but amusing Catholic kitsch.  some of the younger sisters have jobs teaching in public schools, working as nurses and doctors, presumably donate their salary to the order.  the monastery and convent each have some very elderly religious to care for, a few new vocations, a lot of sisters and brothers well past sixty.

maybe if they prayed more, practice more penance, and actually looked like Monks, rather than engaging in trivialities like "kitsch" people would have an easier time believing in what they were doing and consent to send their sons and daughters to become Benedictines?
Quote:a lot of people left religious life after Vatican II so staffing schools was surely a problem in many places.  i think that in this area, the enrollment dropped first, since so many lay people left the Church and quit sending their kids to Catholic schools.  i think they still had enough teachers for the high schools, at least. 

This was by design.  Actually, they were thrown out or left when their communities went mad with the spirit of the times.  Imagine, you'd been doing traditional Benedicine monastic life and your community decided to jettison it all.  I think I'd leave too.  Most of what goes on in modern Benedictine Communities is a waste of time, at least from what was once the norm in MOST Benedictine institutions prior to the mid 20th Century.
Quote:you have to wonder how long old monasteries and convents will be able to keep up large facilities with fewer vocations and less income.  it's a sad situation.  people from the nearest town and probably the surrounding area now attend Mass at the convent and monastery on Sundays so they get some donations from them.  there''s also a huge old church in the town, though.  the area had a large German Catholic population probably a hundred years ago; the church and the buildings at the convent and monastery are at least that old.  the number of Catholics in the area is increasing but they're mostly retirees so i don't think the schools will be revived.

my point is that i'm not sure the Benedictine sisters and brothers i know as communities had any choice but to focus on "welcoming guests, living together and helping others" to support themselves, since the schools closed, and that they do carry out their worship as they did before. 

I realize you're quite old and deserve a modicum of respect, but it's difficult for me to view excuse makers like you with anything but contempt.  This last sentence reeks with such intellectual dishonest, I can't help but comment on it.
Quote:i haven't watched the videos yet but are the traditional sisters cloistered?

Why don't you watch the videos instead of pontificating in defense of the phonies who pretend to be Benedictines and see that the real vocations are going to those Communities who have remained true to the Benedictine Spirit, rather than trying to be an apologist for effeminates and modernists who give Benedict a bad name?
Quote:  because that makes a big difference and it may be that the NO sisters shown were never cloistered, but were teaching sisters, like the ones i know.  the Church has always had a place for cloistered religious and for active religious as well.  let's hope vocations increase and orders continue to exist.
(01-29-2010, 12:20 PM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-29-2010, 09:03 AM)i.p.i. Wrote: [ -> ]i'm sure St. Benedict would be shocked at all the changes since the 12th century.

I'm sure he'd be more than shocked.
Quote:i'm sure he'd be very, very, very, very,very, very,very, very,very, very shocked.
is that sufficient for you?


but i have to say, in defense of Benedictines, that the sisters, and brothers, may not all wear the habit today but they all sing the Hours in choir stalls like they always have. 

So what?  Most Benedictines have utterly betrayed the Rule of St. Benedict even to the point of making an effeminate translation more recently.
Quote:so this: the Benedictines still sing the Hours in choir stalls like they always have, thus they have not abandoned all Benedictine tradition. 

an Episcopalian acquaintance told me some fifteen years ago that the order of Episcopal nuns she was applying to used the Rule of St. Benedict and that none of the Catholic orders do today, but I have no idea if that's true, nor do i know anything about a new translation of the Rule.  is this the first time the Rule has been modified since St. Benedict wrote it?


i could take you to a big beautiful old convent about 150 miles from here, with an equally big, beautiful monastery up the road a ways. in the fifties and sixties, the convent had a boarding school for girls and a two year college for girls (both have long been closed) while the monastery had a boarding school for boys and a four-year college, which i think was coed.  today the monastery just has a coed boarding school. 

both the monastery and the convent depend on holding conferences and retreats for income, plus donations from alumni and friends.  the monastery also has an historic attraction with gift shop and the monks bake and sell bread there, in addition to books, nice religious articles and some truly awful but amusing Catholic kitsch.  some of the younger sisters have jobs teaching in public schools, working as nurses and doctors, presumably donate their salary to the order.  the monastery and convent each have some very elderly religious to care for, a few new vocations, a lot of sisters and brothers well past sixty.

maybe if they prayed more, practice more penance, and actually looked like Monks, rather than engaging in trivialities like "kitsch" people would have an easier time believing in what they were doing and consent to send their sons and daughters to become Benedictines?
Quote:i've never seen a brother there who wasn't in a habit, actually.  i don't know that their practice of prayer or penance is insufficient, and neither do you.  you could go there as an inquirer about a vocation if you're interested and see more of their life inside the monastery. . . 

as i said, they have a historic landmark there and a gift shop there, which helps supplement their income, along with the price of admission to the landmark itself.   what i consider kitsch may be viewed as beautiful by others and it is a large shop full of Catholic books and religious articles, with monks in habits selling bread baked by monks.  it's quite traditional, really, as Catholic kitsch has always existed.     



a lot of people left religious life after Vatican II so staffing schools was surely a problem in many places.  i think that in this area, the enrollment dropped first, since so many lay people left the Church and quit sending their kids to Catholic schools.  i think they still had enough teachers for the high schools, at least. 

This was by design.  Actually, they were thrown out or left when their communities went mad with the spirit of the times.  Imagine, you'd been doing traditional Benedicine monastic life and your community decided to jettison it all.  I think I'd leave too.  Most of what goes on in modern Benedictine Communities is a waste of time, at least from what was once the norm in MOST Benedictine institutions prior to the mid 20th Century.
Quote:were you there when all this happened?  if not, how can you be sure what happened at any particular monastery or convent?  i've read about what happened to the IHM sisters: T groups and being forced to live in ghettos.  no wonder they left.  but i don't know what happened to these particular Benedictines nor to the order in general and i doubt you do, either.  many religious surely left because of the changes in the Mass, just as many of the laity did. 

you have to wonder how long old monasteries and convents will be able to keep up large facilities with fewer vocations and less income.  it's a sad situation.  people from the nearest town and probably the surrounding area now attend Mass at the convent and monastery on Sundays so they get some donations from them.  there''s also a huge old church in the town, though.  the area had a large German Catholic population probably a hundred years ago; the church and the buildings at the convent and monastery are at least that old.  the number of Catholics in the area is increasing but they're mostly retirees so i don't think the schools will be revived.

my point is that i'm not sure the Benedictine sisters and brothers i know as communities had any choice but to focus on "welcoming guests, living together and helping others" to support themselves, since the schools closed, and that they do carry out their worship as they did before. 

I realize you're quite old and deserve a modicum of respect, but it's difficult for me to view excuse makers like you with anything but contempt.  This last sentence reeks with such intellectual dishonest, I can't help but comment on it.
Quote:so i'm "quite old", an "excuse maker" whom you view with contempt because my "last sentence reeks with such intellectual dishonest [sic]".

i hope that's not your idea of a modicum of respect because there's not a bit of respect in it.

i notice you don't explain [b]why my last sentence "reeks" with "such intellectual dishonest [sic]". how about doing so?[/b]

i had no idea that 62 was "quite old."  timoose is the same age so be sure you tell him, too.  i have a friend who's 93, still bowls in a league and drives, so i'm not sure what "quite old" is these days, but i'm guessing i have shoes older than you.  i take care of my shoes.  it's a traditional thing to do.


i haven't watched the videos yet but are the traditional sisters cloistered?

Why don't you watch the videos instead of pontificating in defense of the phonies who pretend to be Benedictines and see that the real vocations are going to those Communities who have remained true to the Benedictine Spirit, rather than trying to be an apologist for effeminates and modernists who give Benedict a bad name?
Quote:first of all, no one can give the great Saint Benedict a bad name. 

i didn't watch the videos when I read the thread because i was the only one awake at the time and i'm considerate of my spouse, didn't turn on the radio or tv, either. . .   by the way, do you consider nuns "effeminate"?  and have you ever noticed that some male saints look effeminate in paintings done by artists who knew the men during their lives?  is it a sin to look effeminate?

the Benedictines i know are not phonies and they are getting vocations.  some of the oldest sisters gave up the habit and some of the youngest have chosen to wear it.  perhaps the sisters' traditional habits are more uncomfortable than those of the Benedictine brothers, since the sisters must wear a coif.  in our scorching summers, i'm sure the coifs must be uncomfortable.  as i said before, i've never seen a brother who didn't wear a habit, possibly because their habits are more comfortable and don't appear to need ironing, either.  the sisters' habits are heavily starched and ironed.

  because that makes a big difference and it may be that the NO sisters shown were never cloistered, but were teaching sisters, like the ones i know.  the Church has always had a place for cloistered religious and for active religious as well.  let's hope vocations increase and orders continue to exist.

by the way, shouldn't your name be Augustine Baker?  you seem to have misplaced a "u."

first of all, no one can give the great Saint Benedict a bad name.

i didn't watch the videos when I read the thread because i was the only one awake at the time and i'm considerate of my spouse, didn't turn on the radio or tv, either. . .  by the way, do you consider nuns "effeminate"?  and have you ever noticed that some male saints look effeminate in paintings done by artists who knew the men during their lives?  is it a sin to look effeminate?

the Benedictines i know are not phonies and they are getting vocations.  some of the oldest sisters gave up the habit and some of the youngest have chosen to wear it.  perhaps the sisters' traditional habits are more uncomfortable than those of the Benedictine brothers, since the sisters must wear a coif.  in our scorching summers, i'm sure the coifs must be uncomfortable.  as i said before, i've never seen a brother who didn't wear a habit, possibly because their habits are more comfortable and don't appear to need ironing, either.  the sisters' habits are heavily starched and ironed.
,

Must have hit a nerve because you've sunk in your obvious liberal perfidity to correcting minor grammatical errors when you can't even follow more essential grammatical rules yourself.  Liberals are obsessed by arbitrary conventions like grammar and etiquette, because it's the closest they'll ever come to infallibility, and the arbitrary power of the oriental despot, but I'll try to comment on your most *salient* points.

Yes, females can be effeminate as well, or mannish in this case.  I don't use gender inclusive language either.

Effeminacy isn't a virtue, and I really don't like faggy religious art either.

Are you Cathleen Norris' cousin or something?  And just out of curiosity, what pile of bricks sporting a marquee alleging Benedictine Communities are you talking about? 

And finally, I've had wide experience of Benedictines and I'd say that it's harder to find an orthodox Benedictine than a Jesuit, but considering the fact that most women religious are resisting the investigation of women religious, the same goes for the ladies as well, but I agree with the leftists at America that the men need to be investigated as much if not more than the wymyn.  And the Benedictines I know, the men, like to wear their habits because they're into showy things, and the Benedictine wymyn don't like to wear habits, and regard the ones who do wear habits as fuddy duddies and medieval throwbacks (I know this for a fact).

http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/2009...amily.html
Whoa, buddy. You're being unnecessarily rude. I see you're also falling back on one of the hot button insult terms around here ("liberal," in this case) and throwing it at doddering old i.p.i. instead of addressing what he said. And hey! Kathleen Norris' book is actually really good, although you have to just roll your eyes at her feminist commentary, which seems to have been thrown in on second thought rather than being integral to the text.

I wish the terms "liberal" and "conservative" would be left in the political arena where they belong.
(01-29-2010, 02:58 PM)Satori Wrote: [ -> ]Whoa, buddy. You're being unnecessarily rude. I see you're also falling back on one of the hot button insult terms around here ("liberal," in this case) and throwing it at doddering old i.p.i. instead of addressing what he said. And hey! Kathleen Norris' book is actually really good, although you have to just roll your eyes at her feminist commentary, which seems to have been thrown in on second thought rather than being integral to the text.

I wish the terms "liberal" and "conservative" would be left in the political arena where they belong.

I won't say she started it, but she took the gloves off some time ago.

Instead of reading books on Zen Buddhism and a homosexual enabler like Norris,  you should read Fr. Dennis Fahey instead and learn to love it.
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