FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: The Church fathers on women
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38
Hello everyone.

I found some controversial quotes by the early Fathers on the subject of women (http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/03/10/a-...ianity.htm), such as:
Clement of Alexandria (150?-215?): "Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman."

Tertullian (160?-220?): "Woman is a temple built over a sewer, the gateway to the devil. Woman, you are the devil's doorway. You led astray one whom the devil would not dare attack directly. It was your fault that the Son of God had to die; you should always go in mourning and rags."

Ambrose (339-97): "Adam was deceived by Eve, not Eve by Adam... it is right that he whom that woman induced to sin should assume the role of guide lest he fall again through feminine instability."

Augustine (354-430): "Woman was merely man's helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God."

Pope Gregory I (540-604): "Woman is slow in understanding and her unstable and naive mind renders her by way of natural weakness to the necessity of a strong hand in her husband. Her 'use' is two fold; [carnal] sex and motherhood."

Thomas Aquinas (1225-74): "[Woman] was made only to assist with procreation."

I was wondering what the Church's view is on this. I mean, these are quite harsh, and yet the Church claims to stand for equality. Any thoughts?

Metatron
I don't know if these quotes were taken out of context or simply distorted. Given your source (atheism.about.com), I'd be suspicious.

Nevertheless, you should know that the western views on gender equality are clearly not christian in any way. They're perverse and promote a gender war that is detrimental to rightful social order, sane families and healthy societies.

Although these quotes you've shown may have been distorted, I pretty much agree with the message that they're trying to convey, even if I wouldn't use the exact same words.
A lot of how screwed up everything is in the Church is due to women running things.
(02-09-2010, 01:39 AM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]A lot of how screwed up everything is in the Church is due to women running things.

atheism.about.com may want to quote you, too.
Tertullian was an idiot.

Augustine is correct but should not be taken out of context. God became incarnate as a Man, but that does not mean no reverence is given to Mary, whom all women are meant to imitate. Augustine is talking of whether a Man should seek to be like a Woman or like God. Men should be masculine for it is Manliness, from a man's concern, that is effectively the image of God. Likewise women are meant to be like women, not men. And the word "helpmate" is a more accurate translation of the word in Genesis than, say, "servant" is. She is there to help him in the way a Deacon is there to help a Priest, or Queen is there to help a King. An even better model might be that of the relationship between ship and crew (appropriately ship's are always referred to as 'she').

Ambrose is talking about Feminine instability and Masculine carelessness. Adam had charge over Eve and did not exercise that responsibility. He is just as much at fault. He should have watched over her rather than left his carelessness completely in her hands. Likewise, she should have been honest with him and not taken complete control of the situation. It was a dysfunction of what was meant to be a perfectly functional partnership.

In response to St. Gregory, he is referring to a woman's role in distinction from a man's role in the family. In comparison you could say that the man's role is merely protective and that of a provider. This is accurate, but not fair. In other words, this statement is a bit out of context.

And Thomas Aquinas is correct. We did not need the distinction of sexes, but God created the distinction so that we may multiply. This does not mean that women are worth less than men, just that their distinction does not make them worth more, at least not in itself. Even the Blessed Virgin's "ability" to bare the Christ-child did not make her special, it was her willingness to do so, as well as God's Will that she complied with.


In the end, it's best not to take most of these statements out of context. Atheist websites are the worst sites to go to because they are too quick to even admit their own bias. It is best to look for quotations from Catholic sites, or from the direct source (the latter especially).
(02-09-2010, 04:01 AM)Jacafamala Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-09-2010, 01:39 AM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]A lot of how screwed up everything is in the Church is due to women running things.

atheism.about.com may want to quote you, too.

They probably quote St. Paul too.
(02-09-2010, 09:37 AM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-09-2010, 04:01 AM)Jacafamala Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-09-2010, 01:39 AM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]A lot of how screwed up everything is in the Church is due to women running things.

atheism.about.com may want to quote you, too.

They probably quote St. Paul too.

I never saw where St. Paul was misogynistic. He knew men and women had separate roles. But that's different. There's a difference between treating women as women and treating women as dirt, you know.

And btw, I didn't like your totally rash inference that the FSSP only shows up in dioceses where the SSPX already are. Untrue. My Diocese Paterson has FSSP but no SSPX. But, I'm not going back to that Mexican thread. It was getting a lil too much on my nerves.
(02-09-2010, 09:42 AM)Jacafamala Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-09-2010, 09:37 AM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-09-2010, 04:01 AM)Jacafamala Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-09-2010, 01:39 AM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]A lot of how screwed up everything is in the Church is due to women running things.

atheism.about.com may want to quote you, too.

They probably quote St. Paul too.

I never saw where St. Paul was misogynistic. He knew men and women had separate roles. But that's different. There's a difference between treating women as women and treating women as dirt, you know.

And btw, I didn't like your totally rash inference that the FSSP only shows up in dioceses where the SSPX already are. Untrue. My Diocese Paterson has FSSP but no SSPX. But, I'm not going back to that Mexican thread. It was getting a lil too much on my nerves.

Maybe you should read St. Paul again.

I've never written a single word in defense of the FSSP being co-located by design with SSPX chapels. Do planners do things like that?  Yes, but I'm not committed to the idea one way or another. 
I would like to point out the holiest person ever born, or that ever will be born, ever, was, is, a woman. The Blessed Virgin Mary. Just the plain facts here.
(02-09-2010, 01:39 AM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]A lot of how screwed up everything is in the Church is due to women running things.
So you're saying what? Reform the reform? Get wimmens out of the sanctuary and the VII and Bugnini problem just melts away? Are you one of those Neos everyone's been warning me about?  :laughing:
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38