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(03-30-2010, 05:40 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-30-2010, 05:16 PM)In nomine Patris Wrote: [ -> ]And someday Lefebrve will be declared a saint, this whole thing is like the aryian heresy of the 4th century.

To have both Archbishop Lefebrve and Pope John Paul II declared saints would be deliciously ironic.

I dont even see how that would be possible, it sure would be weird.
(03-30-2010, 04:36 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]There is still a mystery to be solved. John Paul II cannot be a liberal and a traditionalist at the same time. So which is he? A modernist monster that traditionalists hate? Or a traditionalist monster that liberals hate? I've never seen such a contradiction in one man. I know why the liberals hate him. But I believe that even if JPII had not kissed the Koran or prayed with non-Christians in Assisi, he would still be hated by trads because he excommunicated Archbishop Lefebvre. Be honest.

Well, if we want to be honest, he didn't excommunicate ABL - it was latae sententiae. 

If you want JP2 not to be disliked (hated is your word, not mine) by trads, there is a long list, but lets go with the glaringly obvious:

1) No Communion in hand
2) No altar girls
3) No EMHCs
4) Enforce Canon Law
5) No false ecumenism
6) Discipline heretics, apostate and schismatics - especially those who happen to be bishops
7) Set examples of the appropriate way to say the Novus Ordo
8) Enforce rubrics
9) Punish bishops who hide pedophiles
10) Kicking homosexuals and pedophiles out of seminaries
11) Making religious wear appropriate dress (i.e., habits, Roman collars, etc.)
12) Disciplining dissident theologians

And that's without even being traditional.
As far as the mystery, there is no mystery.

It's obvious why he is disliked by trads.  At least it should be obvious to anyone who hangs around this forum.  So, why is he disliked by liberals and modernists?

The answer is: he isn't - he is only disliked by the most radical and impatient of liberals and modernists.  It's like some leftists think Obama is too Conservative.  Same thing in the Church.  Womynpriests are obviously going to dislike him - but they are the extreme radical group.

The Liberals and Modernists who are either 1) less radical, or, 2) have actual plans to their goals don't dislike him.  Cdl. Bernadin, Cdl. Mahony, etc. all like JP2 fine.  Because they know to make the Church in their vision they need to do it over time, and he gave them what they needed to make forward progress.  They want a Pope with a certain amount of credibility with the mainstream that gives them what they want so they can call it "Catholic".

They get the Episcopacy filled over time with bishops of their ilk. control the Seminaries so the "right people" are made priests and the "wrong people" are not. Control translations, the USCCB, etc.  They cover for each other, etc.  This is exactly how people in the SDS took over the Democratic Party in the U.S.  Get a few Senators in, build a power base, etc.  What do you think they've been doing since V2?

This stuff doesn't happen by accident or chance.  They have an agenda.  It's not a hidden conspiracy - it's an open conspiracy.  They just hide some of the machinations.

Really, the Liberals and Modernists probably saw JP2 as a "useful idiot".  They saw he was weak and could get him to cave on anything just by being disobedient.  And that is the charitable interpretation.  The uncharitable one is that he was one of their ilk and new exactly what he was doing.  We'll probably never know the full truth of the matter.



(03-30-2010, 06:55 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: [ -> ]1) No Communion in hand
2) No altar girls
3) No EMHCs
4) Enforce Canon Law
5) No false ecumenism
6) Discipline heretics, apostate and schismatics - especially those who happen to be bishops
7) Set examples of the appropriate way to say the Novus Ordo
8) Enforce rubrics
9) Punish bishops who hide pedophiles
10) Kicking homosexuals and pedophiles out of seminaries
11) Making religious wear appropriate dress (i.e., habits, Roman collars, etc.)
12) Disciplining dissident theologians

All of the above could apply to Pope Benedict, as EHMCs, altar girls, and communion in the hand, etc., are still very much with us. Cdl. Mahoney is still in good graces with the Holy See, last time I looked. Pope Benedict has also visited synagogues, mosques, and prayed with Lutherans. The blame for sex scandal cover-ups is being laid at the feet of the current Pope, because as Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, who did he answer to? The Pope? Or the Secretary? Was he in a position to be less in the dark than JP2? 

Quis Wrote:The Liberals and Modernists who are either 1) less radical, or, 2) have actual plans to their goals don't dislike him.  Cdl. Bernadin, Cdl. Mahony, etc. all like JP2 fine. 

Cardinal Ratzinger liked him fine too, and when he became Pope put his cause for sainthood on the fast track. But B16 is treated with kid gloves here. That's because B16 gave us the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum; and yet JP2 embraced the FSSP! If B16 sympathizes with tradition, then JP2 sympathized with tradition. If JP2 was a liberal, then B16 is a liberal.

FWIW, I stand by both of them.
(03-30-2010, 09:49 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-30-2010, 06:55 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: [ -> ]1) No Communion in hand
2) No altar girls
3) No EMHCs
4) Enforce Canon Law
5) No false ecumenism
6) Discipline heretics, apostate and schismatics - especially those who happen to be bishops
7) Set examples of the appropriate way to say the Novus Ordo
8) Enforce rubrics
9) Punish bishops who hide pedophiles
10) Kicking homosexuals and pedophiles out of seminaries
11) Making religious wear appropriate dress (i.e., habits, Roman collars, etc.)
12) Disciplining dissident theologians

All of the above could apply to Pope Benedict, as EHMCs, altar girls, and communion in the hand, etc., are still very much with us. Cdl. Mahoney is still in good graces with the Holy See, last time I looked. Pope Benedict has also visited synagogues, mosques, and prayed with Lutherans. The blame for sex scandal cover-ups is being laid at the feet of the current Pope, because as Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, who did he answer to? The Pope? Or the Secretary? Was he in a position to be less in the dark than JP2? 

You asked about JP2.  If you want to ask about B16, it's a different list.  There is also the consideration that JP2 opened Pandora's Box, and it's a lot easier to let evil out than shove it back in.  Most of that stuff won't get fixed at least for a Century, IMO.

Quote:
Quis Wrote:The Liberals and Modernists who are either 1) less radical, or, 2) have actual plans to their goals don't dislike him.  Cdl. Bernadin, Cdl. Mahony, etc. all like JP2 fine.   

Cardinal Ratzinger liked him fine too, and when he became Pope put his cause for sainthood on the fast track. But B16 is treated with kid gloves here. That's because B16 gave us the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum; and yet JP2 embraced the FSSP! If B16 sympathizes with tradition, then JP2 sympathized with tradition. If JP2 was a liberal, then B16 is a liberal.

FWIW, I stand by both of them.

FWIW, distracting from JP2s nonsense by pointing to B16 is irrelevant.

I stand by JP2 as Pope, but he was a bad Pope.  Probably one of the worst Popes in the history of the Church.  I stand by B16 as well, and always will, as Pope.  That doesn't mean some day I won't think he is a bad Pope.

If you really want me to break down the differences between B16 and JP2, I will, but I fear you will accuse me of piling on JP2 because there's a lot of crap like topless women at Mass that will come up to differentiate them.  Aside from that, JP2 did not sympathize with tradition.  He tossed a bone out.  B16 freed the Mass, told the truth it wasn't abrogated, remitted the excommunications, etc.  In fact, I have a feeling the only reason JP2 tossed a bone in the form of the FSSP was due to Cdl. R who was the one talking to ABL at the time.

JP2 got kid gloves from me for many years until I had to face the facts of his papacy and couldn't engage in excuses for him anymore.  B16 gets the same treatment from me - i.e., the benefit of the doubt - unless he acts like JP2.  So far, he hasn't.  In addition, justice would demand B16 gets more kid gloves because he's sweeping up after the JP2 elephant at this point.  It's a lot easier to destroy than build up.
QuisutDeus Wrote:There is also the consideration that JP2 opened Pandora's Box, and it's a lot easier to let evil out than shove it back in.  Most of that stuff won't get fixed at least for a Century, IMO.

Absolutely. It's way more difficult to go from chaos to order, than from order to chaos.

The only way these things will get fixed before we'll all dead (or direct divine intervention) will be for there to be some Pope who is ridiculously charismatic. You know, like me. But then, that would fall under the divine intervention thing.

(Seriously, though, one reason Benedict is having a hard time is because, let's be honest, he's not the most charming fellow out there unless you're already a pretty serious Catholic and agree with him on everything. Popes don't have to be likeable, but let me tell you, it sure doesn't hurt.)
(03-30-2010, 10:02 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: [ -> ]FWIW, distracting from JP2s nonsense by pointing to B16 is irrelevant.

But it's not irrelevant, because this thread IS (was) about Pope Benedict, and should he resign? And immediately the topic was diverted by turning the finger of blame at JP2. It happens in every thread, no matter what Pope we're talking about.
(03-30-2010, 10:16 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-30-2010, 10:02 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: [ -> ]FWIW, distracting from JP2s nonsense by pointing to B16 is irrelevant.

But it's not irrelevant, because this thread IS (was) about Pope Benedict, and should he resign? And immediately the topic was diverted by turning the finger of blame at JP2. It happens in every thread, no matter what Pope we're talking about.

Maybe that's because there's something to blaming JP2 for all these scandals not being dealt with.  Maybe there's something to blaming JP2 for these problems in general.

Do you want me to go down the laundry list?

Since this particular thread is about the sexual abuse issues, we can start with the recent revelation that Cdl. R wanted at least one high-profile pedophile pursued but JP2 but the kybosh on it and silenced it and go from there.

ETA: If you don't know what I'm talking about, read this:

http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...sg33250429
(03-30-2010, 10:22 PM)QuisUtDeus Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe that's because there's something to blaming JP2 for all these scandals not being dealt with.  Maybe there's something to blaming JP2 for these problems in general.

Do you want me to go down the laundry list?

No, let's not.
Here is an interestng article by one of the principle players on the Church team:

http://catholicanchor.org/wordpress/?p=601

Quote:To provide context to this article, I was the Judicial Vicar for the Archdiocese of Milwaukee from 1995-2003. During those years, I presided over four canonical criminal cases, one of which involved Father Lawrence Murphy. Two of the four men died during the process. God alone will judge these men.
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