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Indeed so.  I can see now where the disconnect occurs: in the establishment of SEPARATE and SEPARATING Divine Laws
from Natural Laws [which everyone OUGHT TO KNOW but in our modern society, nobody knows] and these Divine Laws
speak to Intentions-before-behavior, which is a 5th-7th Density concept, policing intentions.

That's a top-down approach too.

So it appears to me then, if the Church teaches the Commandments [all of them] AND Divine Laws, the Church is operating
from BOTH bottom-up and top-down perspectives.

This could be good, if the outcomes are good.  However, "ends" don't justify un-Lawful or un-Holy methods, do they?

Emily

(04-04-2010, 03:22 PM)No3456 Wrote: [ -> ]This could be good, if the outcomes are good.  However, "ends" don't justify un-Lawful or un-Holy methods, do they?

No, of course not.  Ultimate good can't come from sin.  Christ said this when they accused Him of being in league with the devil to heal.

I don' t know if you're implying this or not, but I don't see the Church as using unlawful or unholy means.  Christ Himself picked 12 leaders, the Apostles.  The claim of the Church, one I believe being Catholic and all,  is that the bishops of the Church are their successors.

So, we see a hierarchy from the beginning - Christ the head, then the Apostles, then those who helped the Apostles.  This is the hierarchy in the Church - the Pope is the Vicar of Christ (Christ is the true head of the Church, but the Pope serves as temporal head under Christ just as St. Peter was Christ's Vicar after His death and resurrection), the bishops are the Apostles, and the priests, deacons, etc., are the helpers of the Apostles.

Canon Law, the temporal law of the Church, cannot override or conflict with Divine or Natural Law.  It can only compliment it.

Another purpose of the Catholic hierarchy is the teaching office or Magisterium.  It belongs to them to say what Scripture means, to discern Divine and Natural Law, and to teach the rest.  This also makes sense - the books of the NT, the Acts, the Letters of Paul, Peter, etc. are from the Apostles - the hierarchy - teaching and expounding upon the Gospel.  There wasn't private interpretation back then - it was left to the Apostles to explain.  Likewise, now, in Catholicism there is not private interpretation - it belongs to the successors of the Apostles to explain and teach.
(04-04-2010, 03:22 PM)No3456 Wrote: [ -> ]Indeed so.  I can see now where the disconnect occurs: in the establishment of SEPARATE and SEPARATING Divine Laws
from Natural Laws [which everyone OUGHT TO KNOW but in our modern society, nobody knows] and these Divine Laws
speak to Intentions-before-behavior, which is a 5th-7th Density concept, policing intentions.

That's a top-down approach too.

So it appears to me then, if the Church teaches the Commandments [all of them] AND Divine Laws, the Church is operating
from BOTH bottom-up and top-down perspectives.

This could be good, if the outcomes are good.  However, "ends" don't justify un-Lawful or un-Holy methods, do they?

Emily

First off, the ends NEVER justify the means in Catholic philosophy - regardless of whether the ends are extremely good.

Second, your mention of the "5th - 7th density" is curious - you talk as if it is a reality that we here would accept.  All I can find on that subject is occult and, therefore, no one here will likely subscribe to that manner of thinking.

You mention "the establishment of SEPARATE and SEPARATING Divine Laws from Natural Laws" - what does this mean exactly?  Can you define the words you put in upper case?  You say at the end of that sentence that it is "policing thoughts" - in fact, no.  It is not policing thoughts - for two reasons:

1. We cannot tell what a person's thoughts are, therefore we cannot police their thoughts or pass laws to control them.  The Church does not do this.
2. Passing a law is not the same as policing it - they are entirely different concepts.  You cannot say "they pass a law to stop theft, therefore they are policing theft".  

As for law, we all have the natural law - it is on every man's soul.  All other laws are made for the common good of society - so that we can live together and achieve our final cause - the beatific vision.  Laws which are contrary to this are not true laws - such as the laws allowing abortion.
Jamie, thank you so much for explaining how you see these concepts in your own Catholic framework.

It'll take me a while to prayer over this, and figure out how I want to resort or reconfigure what I know.

I'll keep these notes handy.


: )  Emily

(04-04-2010, 05:10 PM)No3456 Wrote: [ -> ]Jamie, thank you so much for explaining how you see these concepts in your own Catholic framework.

It'll take me a while to prayer over this, and figure out how I want to resort or reconfigure what I know.

I'll keep these notes handy.


: )  Emily

You are welcome - though I think from your reply that I get the feeling you are hinting at a belief in the idea that we can have different truths.  The concepts I described are not "my Catholic framework" - they are the teachings of the Church which are true (and can be proven through reason or revelation).  We don't take the teachings of the Church and put them into a personal framework - that would be protestant.  We take the teachings as absolute matters of reality and are obliged (morally and intellectual) to assent to them.

Best of luck with your "reconfiguration" - I certainly hope that the things I have said will be of benefit to you!
(04-04-2010, 06:40 PM)JamieF Wrote: [ -> ]You are welcome - though I think from your reply that I get the feeling you are hinting at a belief in the idea that we can have different truths.  The concepts I described are not "my Catholic framework" - they are the teachings of the Church which are true (and can be proven through reason or revelation).  We don't take the teachings of the Church and put them into a personal framework - that would be protestant.  We take the teachings as absolute matters of reality and are obliged (morally and intellectual) to assent to them. Best of luck with your "reconfiguration" - I certainly hope that the things I have said will be of benefit to you!

Hmm.  This sounds like "thought controls" to me.  Is what you are saying, that "original sin" is a Soul's having their own thoughts about God,
cosmology, theology, science, paleantology, anthropology and history?

Is what you imply that ONLY the Soul who adopts Catholic THOUGHT WHOLESALE, is the Soul who is approved and judged Righteous by God?

I thought we have the free will right to carry our own thoughts around in our own heads so long as our behavior is kindly and beneficent.

Is Ideology the end-all and be-all of Faith in God?

Shrug





(04-04-2010, 07:15 PM)No3456 Wrote: [ -> ]I thought we have the free will right to carry our own thoughts around in our own heads so long as our behavior is kindly and beneficent.

Is Ideology the end-all and be-all of Faith in God?

We have free will, but error has no rights.  If someone behaves yet decides to worship a rock, is that OK?  According to Scripture, no.

What's the point of belonging to a religion if one doesn't believe what it teaches?  And if it teaches nothing is an absolute truth, what good is it?

Theology is different than ideology:

Main Entry: ide·ol·o·gy
Pronunciation: \ˌī-dē-ˈä-lə-jē, ˌi-\
Variant(s): also ide·al·o·gy \-ˈä-lə-jē, -ˈa-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural ide·ol·o·gies
Etymology: French idéologie, from idéo- ideo- + -logie -logy
Date: 1813

1 : visionary theorizing
2 a : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program

— ide·ol·o·gist \-jist\ noun

Ideology has to do with politics and culture.  We are free to hold different ideologies.  Theology is about Faith and Morals.  For those, we are supposed to do what God says.  If one is Catholic, one believes the Church correctly and officially teaches on Faith and Morals.

So, if the Pope and bishops say X is sinful, it is sinful.  If he is a Notre Dame fan, that's up to him.  I don't have to be.

Wait a minute.

Father Alex told me about the problem of Gay priests as he saw it.  And there's the problem of pedophilia hanging over the heads of the Church.

How can the Church claim it teaches what is true about Chastity, if the priests themselves don't believe it?

Jesus says we must be more righteous than the scribes and pharisees (Matt 5).  So where is the Church's opposition to Usury and War?

How can the Church claim it teaches what is true about Chastity, if the priests themselves don't believe it?

I've been suspended between Denominations since I noticed my own Church is not doing what it teaches.

Jesus says, Let your yes mean Yes; and your no, No.  Jesus says, "Come take life's water free!"  Jesus says, "Do not be making spectacles of yourself."

How can I believe this Church BELIEVES what Jesus teaches anymore than the Anglican Catholic, which is busy installing Gay Priests as teachers for children?

I'm having a problem because I don't see BEHAVIOR as following Teachings--not here, not there, not anywhere.

And I don't know what to do except to keep looking for some Christian community--SOMEWHERE--that does what it says and says what it does.


Em  : (



hi 3456.....I like your avatar. It matches your posting style really well  Smile

maybe you would enjoy these videos by the Poor Friars & Sisters.  I just discovered them over in a Facebook group and I love them. I'm not sure which one addresses hierarchy but the one about the True Temple is especially apt for anyone who has been in more than one denomination.

http://vimeo.com/videos/search:poorfriars

I've been searching for a community like that around here, but there isn't any.

I'm too old for them to accept me anyway; and I can't move to Italy.

Oh well.  God will find a way.  Where there's His Will, there's a way.

: )  Em
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