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(04-10-2010, 02:00 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-10-2010, 01:14 PM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]JayneK, you seem to believe that the New Order of the Mass is the Revised Order of the Mass.
It is a New, not changed, revised, or altered -  it is, as the name says, New. It is completely different.

The NO *replaced* The Holy Sacrifice. 
 

I do not see is a completely different.  It is a new *order*.  It has the same basic contents but has changed their arrangement.   All the truths about the Eucharist are there but not presented as well as in the TLM.   It seems to me that the emphasis has been changed so that it is no longer as clear that it is the Holy Sacrifice.  It still mentions the Sacrifice but it doesn't convey the importance and centrality anywhere near as well as the TLM.  It is not as good at conveying a sense of mystery and sacredness as the TLM either.

I was at a retreat this past Lent at which we attended a completely abuse-free NO Mass.  No laity performing priests' roles.  Communion received on the tongue and kneeling.  Ad orientem. Ordinary prayers in Latin.  No altar girls.  The music was beautiful classic Latin hymns.  It was an opportunity to see the NO at its very best.  While it still wasn't as good as the TLM, it was obvious that it was related to it, especially since the homily was about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.   

It was an excellent homily on the subject.  I had just been reading about this in the Baltimore Catechism with my children so I really noticed how completely and clearly it explained the Church's doctrine.  I also noticed that the Mass itself hadn't been as clear as the homily.  The Mass needed that further explanation.  Even so, it was a beautiful and uplifting experience.

The NO Mass was meant to be a simplified and more accessible version of the Mass.  A teacher friend describes it as a "dumbing down" just like like we've seen in the education system.  I think this is an excellent comparison.  The attempts to make school subjects easier have had very similar negative consequences to trying to make Mass "easier".  But dumbed down math is still math.  Dumbed down science is still science.  Dumbing down doesn't change what subject is being taught; it just means it isn't being done as well.  Similarly, dumbing down does not stop the Mass from being Mass.  It just isn't as good.

There is no such thing as "dumbing down" when it comes to the Unbloody Sacrifice. I truly wish that were possible, but it is impossible.

To believe that the NO is simply a "not as good version" of the TLM is to allow yourself to be duped and fooled.

This is no game where one is free to choose the best, or less than best. Those choices are only convenient for the living whilst they still live - but not at all for the dying.

The New Order is known by it's fruits and like the rotten fruits it has and continues to produce, at some point, Our Lord will see to it that it is chopped to shreds and thrown into the fire - why on earth would anyone want to support such a things as abhorrent as the NO in light of it's fruit is beyond me.


 
(04-10-2010, 03:56 PM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]Also, JayneK, you never adequetely answered my question?  If you openly admit that the TLM is superior to the N.O., and that the N.O. is inferior to the TLM, then why do you attend the N.O. when God demands the very best of us?  You can give all the excuses in the world, but if you are within adequate distance of a TLM, and you are fully aware of the superiority of the TLM, you are obliged to abandon the N.O. and attend the TLM exclusively -- unless you bend to the opportunism and ease of attending an inferior rite when you know very well that there is a superior form out there.

I answered your question.  I gave my reasons.  You are not the judge of whether they are adequate.  You have no right to dismiss them as excuses and to accuse me of opportunism.

God is my judge, not you.  And, while I have a lot of sins and mistakes to answer for, attending the Novus Ordo Mass is not one of them.
(04-10-2010, 04:05 PM)Ex_NO Wrote: [ -> ]All reference to the Real Presence, even ones indirect have been stripped from all prayers of the NOM.   All notions of propitiation and sacrifice has been expunged from the NOM.  Anything in the NOM that might even hint at a sacrificing priesthood has been eliminated. 

From the NO Sunday Missal:
Quote:Father, all-powerful and ever-living God, we do well always and everywhere to give you thanks through Jesus Christ our Lord.
He is the true and eternal priest who established this unending sacrifice.  He offered himself as a victim for our deliverance and taught us to make this offering in his memory.  As we eat his body which he gave for us, we grow in strength. As we drink his blood which he poured out for us, we are washed clean.

(04-10-2010, 04:05 PM)Ex_NO Wrote: [ -> ]Jayne, the NO is not Catholic.  If you are Catholic, you ought have no business with NOM and its sakraments.

Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia. 
(04-10-2010, 04:07 PM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]The New Order is known by it's fruits and like the rotten fruits it has and continues to produce, at some point, Our Lord will see to it that it is chopped to shreds and thrown into the fire - why on earth would anyone want to support such a things as abhorrent as the NO in light of it's fruit is beyond me. 

And we could just as rightly say that the V2 and the NO are fruit of the TLM.  Every priest involved in Vatican II was ordained in and celebrated the TLM.  Every Catholic theologian they consulted at the Council attended the TLM. 

It is not the Mass that people attend that makes them sin and come up with foolish ideas.  Due to original sin, we have weakened wills and clouded intellects.  There will always be evidence of these consequences in human behaviour, no matter what Mass we have.
(04-10-2010, 04:40 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia. 

??? Problem:  Peter prays with voodoo gods at Assisi I & II = Jayne must also pray with voodoo gods at Faith Community.
(04-10-2010, 04:40 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-10-2010, 04:05 PM)Ex_NO Wrote: [ -> ]All reference to the Real Presence, even ones indirect have been stripped from all prayers of the NOM.   All notions of propitiation and sacrifice has been expunged from the NOM.  Anything in the NOM that might even hint at a sacrificing priesthood has been eliminated. 

From the NO Sunday Missal:
Quote:Father, all-powerful and ever-living God, we do well always and everywhere to give you thanks through Jesus Christ our Lord.
He is the true and eternal priest who established this unending sacrifice.  He offered himself as a victim for our deliverance and taught us to make this offering in his memory.  As we eat his body which he gave for us, we grow in strength. As we drink his blood which he poured out for us, we are washed clean.

Nothing offensive to Protestants.
(04-10-2010, 04:52 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-10-2010, 04:07 PM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]The New Order is known by it's fruits and like the rotten fruits it has and continues to produce, at some point, Our Lord will see to it that it is chopped to shreds and thrown into the fire - why on earth would anyone want to support such a things as abhorrent as the NO in light of it's fruit is beyond me. 

And we could just as rightly say that the V2 and the NO are fruit of the TLM.  Every priest involved in Vatican II was ordained in and celebrated the TLM.  Every Catholic theologian they consulted at the Council attended the TLM. 

It is not the Mass that people attend that makes them sin and come up with foolish ideas.  Due to original sin, we have weakened wills and clouded intellects.  There will always be evidence of these consequences in human behaviour, no matter what Mass we have.

Yes, many of those involved in V2 were indeed TLMer's  - that was before the label "TLM" even existed.

If you will examine a bit of recent Church history more closely, you will find that most "TLM" clergy were given the boot for holding fast to the faith while resisting everything the NO stood for. All the while, clergy of the NO replaced those "TLMers"who were literally kicked out for resisting the NO.

Sadly the modernists that Pope St. Pius X warned about were firmly grounded in the hierarchy  - viola, the New Order.

The same order that you, sadly support.
(04-10-2010, 04:19 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]  And, while I have a lot of sins and mistakes to answer for, attending the Novus Ordo Mass is not one of them.

I strongly disagree with that statement, for you obviously know that the TLM is superior, but you insist on serving God in an inferior fashion.  I can think of few worse sins.  You are showing that 1) you truly think the N.O. is just as good as the TLM, which goes against your statement, or 2) you will worship God as you feel fit, wich is Protestantism.
And you are judging her.
(04-10-2010, 04:52 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-10-2010, 04:07 PM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]The New Order is known by it's fruits and like the rotten fruits it has and continues to produce, at some point, Our Lord will see to it that it is chopped to shreds and thrown into the fire - why on earth would anyone want to support such a things as abhorrent as the NO in light of it's fruit is beyond me. 

And we could just as rightly say that the V2 and the NO are fruit of the TLM.  Every priest involved in Vatican II was ordained in and celebrated the TLM.  Every Catholic theologian they consulted at the Council attended the TLM. 

It is not the Mass that people attend that makes them sin and come up with foolish ideas.  Due to original sin, we have weakened wills and clouded intellects.  There will always be evidence of these consequences in human behaviour, no matter what Mass we have.

You don't know what happened at Vatican II.  Read what Archbishop Lefebvre has written.  There was indeed a more conservative majority, but the careful planning of the very liberal minority hijacked this council in a very wierd way.
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