FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: Re:Novus Ordo Masses
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
(04-07-2010, 05:21 PM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-07-2010, 05:15 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ] In practice, the Novus Ordo can range from reverent and abuse-free to heretical and sacrilegious.    Some may be so spiritually harmful that it is better to not go to Mass at all, but others may be better than nothing.    If the only accessible TLM  is only available once a month, then it is worth investigating what NO options are available for the other weeks.

I totally disagree with this.  The N.O. Mass is condemend by its own nature.  The removal of the prayers that protected the holiness of the Mass is a huge sacrilege in itself, which is ingrained in the fabric of every N.O. Mass.  

The Pope says the NO Mass.  I do not see how the sort of total rejection of it you suggest is possible without implying that one knows more about it than the Pope.  I am not prepared to take a position like that , no matter how superior I believe the TLM.
Quote:Besides, you will hardly find an N.O. Mass without a Protestant Supper Table in use, unveiled women, altar girls, and people recieving Christ in their hands while standing.

I know of at least two churches with NO Masses like that within an hour's drive of me.

(04-07-2010, 05:37 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-07-2010, 05:21 PM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-07-2010, 05:15 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ] In practice, the Novus Ordo can range from reverent and abuse-free to heretical and sacrilegious.    Some may be so spiritually harmful that it is better to not go to Mass at all, but others may be better than nothing.    If the only accessible TLM  is only available once a month, then it is worth investigating what NO options are available for the other weeks.

I totally disagree with this.  The N.O. Mass is condemend by its own nature.  The removal of the prayers that protected the holiness of the Mass is a huge sacrilege in itself, which is ingrained in the fabric of every N.O. Mass.  

The Pope says the NO Mass.  I do not see how the sort of total rejection of it you suggest is possible without implying that one knows more about it than the Pope.  I am not prepared to take a position like that , no matter how superior I believe the TLM.
Quote:Besides, you will hardly find an N.O. Mass without a Protestant Supper Table in use, unveiled women, altar girls, and people recieving Christ in their hands while standing.

I know of at least two churches with NO Masses like that within an hour's drive of me.

The pope is not some sort of demi-god that is exempt from error at all times.  This seems to be the common consensus among neo-Caths.  History tells us that a pope can teach error and even lead astary in a horrid way much of the Church (see Pope Liberius and the Arian Crisis -- and Paul VI and John Paul II in the Modernist Crisis).  The Pope is our safeguard to the truth, which is only executed under very specific circumstances.

Even if there are "reverent" N.O. Masses, they are still condemned by their substance (i.e. the removal of prayers that protected the holiness of the Mass, and the protestantizing of the Mass).  This is the basis of all the abuses that have sprung up which are ALL associated with the New Mass.
(04-07-2010, 05:41 PM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]The pope is not some sort of demi-god that is exempt from error at all times. 

Of course not.  But I'm quite sure that he is much smarter and holier than I am.

(By the way, I'd love to see the changes to the NO that you suggest.  I think we have quite a bit of common ground in our views.)
(04-07-2010, 05:47 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-07-2010, 05:41 PM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]The pope is not some sort of demi-god that is exempt from error at all times. 

Of course not.  But I'm quite sure that he is much smarter and holier than I am.

(By the way, I'd love to see the changes to the NO that you suggest.  I think we have quite a bit of common ground in our views.)

I advocate the changes to the N.O. for only enough time for it to be completely erradicated from the Church, so that the true Mass can be re-established completely.
The NO is not a catholic mass. Its a prod bastard mass. A frankenstien abomination. Do your soul a favour and only worship at a catholic mass. The mass for all time the tLM or an eastern rite but I'd avoid the maronite its heavily NOtardized
(04-07-2010, 05:52 PM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-07-2010, 05:47 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ](By the way, I'd love to see the changes to the NO that you suggest.  I think we have quite a bit of common ground in our views.)

I advocate the changes to the N.O. for only enough time for it to be completely erradicated from the Church, so that the true Mass can be re-established completely.

I don't have a problem with that in theory but I'm not sure how practical it is.
(04-07-2010, 12:33 PM)Deborah Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.cmri.org/novusordo.html

Deborah, I see that you have added another link that shows an argument that translating pro multis as "for all" makes the NO invalid.  I wish to note that this site supports my earlier assertion that denial of the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass is likely to be associated with rejection of the Magisterium.  The theological position of the CMRI is:
Quote: In the light of the above, it must be concluded that the modern hierarchy who have approved and implemented the errors of Vatican II no longer represent the Catholic Church and her lawful authority. This most certainly includes the one who confirmed, approved, decreed, and implemented these heretical teachings, namely Paul VI (Montini). Likewise included are his successors, namely, John Paul II (Wojtyla) and Benedict XVI (Ratzinger), who have continued to implement these heretical teachings. Despite the lack of canonical warning and formal declaration of loss of office, their repeated acts of ecumenism and their enforcement of the heresies of Vatican II and the new code of Canon Law, which are injurious to faith and morals, are manifestations of their pertinacity in heresy.
It is not necessary to be a sedevacantist and reject the NO for reasons such as pro multis translating to all in the vernac...

It would be a rejection of the vernac NO and not the promulgation in Latin...the latin however suffers from more...it suffers from the leaving out of a great deal...thus endangering faith, and additions that are questionable...thus endangering faith...thus causing scandal at the very least, EVERY time we attend...and for the dude giving it...every time he performs it.


Why are we having this discussion again?

All previous threads about this topic lead to the same place...avoid the NO unless you have nothing else...if you have nothing else you have to dig deep and figure out what's worse ...not going to Mass since the NO is objectionable and bad for you (in all probability judging from it's fruits...) or missing Mass and offering a spiritual communion with all the Masses in the world that day.


The Japanese went without Mass for 200 years..(Yeah, that means the TLM) and did not lose the Faith.  A similar story in Brazil is of interest...some NO missionary preists went deep into the jungle and found one of the tribes converted by the Jesuits 2 centuries beforehand...the people told them to get lost and send the men in black...guess who followed...yep that's right...the SSPX.
(04-07-2010, 04:31 PM)mike6240 Wrote: [ -> ][quote='Nic' pid='545876' dateline='1270671273']

I also live in a "Baptist belt," and I am formerly a Southern Baptist, only converted 6 years ago.  I also travel over 4.5 hrs round trip to attend the Mass of All-time.  When you see altar girls, women speaking in Church and not wearing veils (both Scripturally condemned), listening to guitars, having priests tell you not to try and convert your Protestant parents, but try to get them to a "good PRotesant church," hearing that, along with Jesus Christ and St. Thomas Aquinas, that Martin Luther was a "great man," seeing people with absolutely no reverence for the Body and Blood of Christ, recieving Him standing and in their filthy hands, watching the Sacred Host stomped underfoot - you will realize that you must make a choice - and that choice is either accept this "New Religion" that has formed within the official confines of the Church, or find the true Church that is still out there, only in the "modern catacombs."  I will pray that you continue to follow your heart and see that the N.O. Mass is not Catholic, and do what is necessary.
As well as what I "bold-faced" above,  the other changes I see in my church are, "Eucharistic Ministers" (generally female) giving the Eucharist and reading our first and second reading; no reverence upon entering the church as people are chatting after supposedly kneeling and saying their prayers, and when mass has ended after the last hymn, people ALL start talking and many can't pray in peace as it is too loud!! :o  This just breaks my heart as it seems SO different from the wonderful experience I had as a very young girl. You all are truly blessed to be able to experience true reverence through a TLM. 
Jayne, I mean no disrespect in mentioning the above, as this has been my experience and shock in coming back to something so completely different.  I can understand the feelings of what the others are saying too, but at the end of the day, everyone has their reasons for choosing what they do.
This forum has certainly been an eye-opener!
God bless,
Deborah
(04-07-2010, 08:36 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: [ -> ]Why are we having this discussion again?

So newbies like me can learn a thing or two!! lol

All previous threads about this topic lead to the same place...avoid the NO unless you have nothing else...if you have nothing else you have to dig deep and figure out what's worse ...not going to Mass since the NO is objectionable and bad for you (in all probability judging from it's fruits...) or missing Mass and offering a spiritual communion with all the Masses in the world that day.



The Japanese went without Mass for 200 years..(Yeah, that means the TLM) and did not lose the Faith.  A similar story in Brazil is of interest...some NO missionary preists went deep into the jungle and found one of the tribes converted by the Jesuits 2 centuries beforehand...the people told them to get lost and send the men in black...guess who followed...yep that's right...the SSPX.

VERY interesting Scipio!
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21