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(04-07-2010, 08:36 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: [ -> ]Why are we having this discussion again?

In part because you are not answering the specific question asked by the OP.  She wanted to know about how the bad translation of pro multis affected the validity of the NO Mass and you started talking about why it is is a bad idea to go to an NO Mass.  These are separate issues.  The official Vatican position and the consensus of most theologians is that the validity is not affected.  As several people have pointed out the problems with the NO have little to do with the question of validity.

I doubt that many members of Fish Eaters would disagree that it is better to go to a TLM when one is available.  What is controversial here every time the subject comes up is whether the NO is better than nothing.  Some people here say yes and some say no. Nobody - certainly not you - has made a definitive answer that convinces everyone and makes further discussion unnecessary. 

(04-07-2010, 08:52 PM)Deborah Wrote: [ -> ]As well as what I "bold-faced" above,  the other changes I see in my church are, "Eucharistic Ministers" (generally female) giving the Eucharist and reading our first and second reading; no reverence upon entering the church as people are chatting after supposedly kneeling and saying their prayers, and when mass has ended after the last hymn, people ALL start talking and many can't pray in peace as it is too loud!! :o  This just breaks my heart as it seems SO different from the wonderful experience I had as a very young girl. You all are truly blessed to be able to experience true reverence through a TLM. 
Jayne, I mean no disrespect in mentioning the above, as this has been my experience and shock in coming back to something so completely different.  I can understand the feelings of what the others are saying too, but at the end of the day, everyone has their reasons for choosing what they do.

Deborah, I do not feel disrespected by you finding these things shocking and heart-breaking.  I think that is just how you ought to react to encountering the liturgical practices under discussion.  Since it sounds like you rarely have access to a TLM, perhaps you can find a NO Mass that does not have so many abuses and problems.  I consider stopping attending Mass altogether pretty extreme and a step to be taken only after exhausting the other options.
(04-07-2010, 08:58 PM)Deborah Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-07-2010, 08:36 PM)Scipio_a Wrote: [ -> ]Why are we having this discussion again?
So newbies like me can learn a thing or two!! lol

Exactly.  Even though for a lot of us this is old hat, in fact years, it's important to answer questions.  And if you don't answer, then maybe only the other opinions will be voiced.

I suppose we could have a FAQ, but that seems like a dictated opinion rather than a discussion, and I think people who are unsure can make up their minds better through discussion because issues can be talked through.

So, Scipio, I encourage you to give your viewpoint as you always have, and I encourage the opposing viewpoint as well.  People can read through it, talk to SSPX, FSSP, NO priests, etc. and decide for themselves because they are the ones who have to answer to Christ for their choices; so I think it is best they choose rather than read a pamphlet and follow it (especially if it is a Call To Action pamphlet, har).

ETA: If you find yourself repeating yourself, then just open notepad, and type your statement into it.  Anytime someone asks, open the file and copy and paste your post - it's like your own FAQ.  I don't have a problem with that.  In fact, I encourage it for some things because 1) it can be better written than an off-the-cuff post, and, 2) the answer will be consistent from the same person.
(04-07-2010, 04:31 PM)mike6240 Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-07-2010, 04:14 PM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]Listen to Scipio over JayneK on this subject.

Most of us true Traditionalists will tell you that the N.O. Mass can be valid, and most probably are, but that is not the problem.  The problem is the sacrilege involved.  There are indeed times when they are not valid, though.  It is a crap-shoot because you don't know if the priest has true intentions or if the host has been tampered with.  The changing of the words of Christ, which are "for many" to the ecumenically pleasing "for all" at least throws some doubt on its validity. 

Also, stating that the N.O. Mass is invalid would not be denying the Magesterium, because the N.O. Mass was nevery lawfully promulgated.  When Pope Paul VI introduced the New Mass he put in the new Missal “We hope that the Missal will be received by the Faithful.” However to impose a law the Pope must make it clear to the Church that a Law is being imposed.  He did not do so.  What Paul VI did had nothing to do with the Church’s indefectibility or the Pope’s infallibility.  Paul VI said on November 19, 1969:  “This Rite (New Mass) and its related rubrics are not in themselves a dogmatic definition.”  Paul VI did not and could not change the Roman Rite of the Mass.

Any Catholic who attends an N.O. Mass while knowing fully the superiority of the Traditional Latin Mass is committing a sin.  One cannot knowingly take a sinful route to obtain one's Sunday Obligation.  Besides, your Sunday Obligation cannot be met at a sacriligious Mass, which ALL N.O. Masses are due to their very substance (or lack thereof).  In essence, the N.O. Mass is not Catholic worship and should be avoided entirely.  It is a Protestantized, bastardized form of the Mass that was wrongly adopted by a great portion of the official structure of the Church.  The N.O. Mass, in almost every way, is parallel to the arch-heretic Protestant Thomas Cranmer's "Lord's Supper" Ceremony, which the Church condemned in the 16th century.  If Cranmer's "Mass" is condemend, then logic dictates that the N.O. is also condemned.  It is an usurper Mass that will be dealt with some day, when the Church fully returns to orthodoxy.  Attend the TLM exclusively, even if you have to travel quite a distance, as do many of us Traditional Catholics.

I also live in a "Baptist belt," and I am formerly a Southern Baptist, only converted 6 years ago.  I also travel over 4.5 hrs round trip to attend the Mass of All-time.  When you see altar girls, women speaking in Church and not wearing veils (both Scripturally condemned), listening to guitars, having priests tell you not to try and convert your Protestant parents, but try to get them to a "good PRotesant church," hearing that, along with Jesus Christ and St. Thomas Aquinas, that Martin Luther was a "great man," seeing people with absolutely no reverence for the Body and Blood of Christ, recieving Him standing and in their filthy hands, watching the Sacred Host stomped underfoot - you will realize that you must make a choice - and that choice is either accept this "New Religion" that has formed within the official confines of the Church, or find the true Church that is still out there, only in the "modern catacombs."  I will pray that you continue to follow your heart and see that the N.O. Mass is not Catholic, and do what is necessary.

-- Also note that if you are real far away from a TLM, as I am, you are not obliged to attend every Sunday.  You fall under the "distance hardship."  The SSPX chapel that I frequent  advices you to try and make it once a month, and the Sunday's that you cannot attend, to stay at home and make a spiritual communion (but to never attend the N.O. Mass).

:amen:

Thank you Nic.  Yours is one of the best explanations I've heard on FE.  I agree with you 100%.

Deo Gratias!

I second that...Thanks Nic...
(04-07-2010, 07:45 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-07-2010, 12:33 PM)Deborah Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.cmri.org/novusordo.html

Deborah, I see that you have added another link that shows an argument that translating pro multis as "for all" makes the NO invalid.  I wish to note that this site supports my earlier assertion that denial of the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass is likely to be associated with rejection of the Magisterium.  The theological position of the CMRI is:
Quote: In the light of the above, it must be concluded that the modern hierarchy who have approved and implemented the errors of Vatican II no longer represent the Catholic Church and her lawful authority. This most certainly includes the one who confirmed, approved, decreed, and implemented these heretical teachings, namely Paul VI (Montini). Likewise included are his successors, namely, John Paul II (Wojtyla) and Benedict XVI (Ratzinger), who have continued to implement these heretical teachings. Despite the lack of canonical warning and formal declaration of loss of office, their repeated acts of ecumenism and their enforcement of the heresies of Vatican II and the new code of Canon Law, which are injurious to faith and morals, are manifestations of their pertinacity in heresy.

Even though MOST true Trads will state that the majority of N.O. Masses are indeed valid, it is NOT going against the Magesterium of the Church to state that they may be invalid.  The N.O. Mass was never lawfully promulgated.  What Paul VI did had nothing to do with the Church's indefectibility or the Pope's infalibility.  So your "assertion" has no merit.

Again, the problem with the N.O. Mass is not the issue of validity.  The problem is the issue of sacrilege, and the N.O. Mass is a sacrilege.    For the sake of discussion, think of it this way (although this wouldn't happen in a TLM, but perhaps in an N.O.) If you attened a TLM that was in the midst of a strip-club, with topless girls dancing in the isles, would the Mass still be valid?  Of course.  But would it be pleasing to God?  Absolutely NOT.  This is the issue with the N.O. - its sacrilege.  One cannot knowingly take sacrilious means to obtain his or her Sunday Obligation.  This is pure opportunism.
Another problem with the NO is that since it's invention and for as long as it remains, it takes people away from the TLM. Folks let themselves be convinced that the NO is ok, fine, great, valid yadda yadda as their faith, hence the faith of their children, was being demolished and replaced right in front of their faces.

Not attending the Holy Sacrifice has been business as usual since the mid 60s and has been cause for untold millions of people to lose the faith. This is the most obvious fruit of the NO.

The Holy sacrifice is how we worship and pray, it's how we believe, Lex orandi, lex credendi and all. The NO is not the Holy Sacrifice.

Best to only attend the TLM - if one is unavailable then stay home, read your Missal and take your Spiritual Communion etc. rather than attend a NO service.

Fulfilling one's obligation to attend Sunday Mass is one of the precepts of the Church.  It is a mortal sin to miss Sunday Mass without a good reason.  This is not a decision to be made lightly.  People need to be very sure that they have a good enough reason to not go to Mass.  If being concerned about avoiding mortal sins makes me not a "true trad" then I really don't want to be one.
Well, it's good to look at it this way........

Suppose you die tonight and your relatives bury you in the NO.

First, you can be assured you will not need any prayers because you will be all but canonized  - that is the Lex orandi, lex credendi of the NO. Any mention of Purgatory, while not completely unheard of, would be out of the norm since that  lex credendi has long since been forgotten  - except perhaps by the very few NO priests who are probably over 75 years old. The Dies Irae - what's that? No need for that in the NO. After all, in the NO, cow worshiping Hindu's, Prots, Jews etc are saved via belonging to the soul of the Church, surely a NO attending Christian has already been whisked up and  already enjoys eternal happiness!

So goes the NO - a lex credendi very convenient for the living, but not at all for the dying.

I could go on and on but there is not much difference between a Baptist funeral and a NO one - - - I been to both and can attest to that.........same goes for the NO "mass".

Whoever feels that it is a sin to not attend, well, all I can say is seek and you will find that is not the case.


(04-08-2010, 07:47 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]Fulfilling one's obligation to attend Sunday Mass is one of the precepts of the Church.  It is a mortal sin to miss Sunday Mass without a good reason.  This is not a decision to be made lightly.  People need to be very sure that they have a good enough reason to not go to Mass.   If being concerned about avoiding mortal sins makes me not a "true trad" then I really don't want to be one.

No one makes this lightly,

The good reasons have all been previously outlined in this thread.  The funny thing about your "missing Mass comment" is that you think it applies to Catholics who only attend TLMs when available or when they have enough gas...when instead there is a very real chance that the person missing Mass is you every time you run along to your NO for convenience sake and skip out on your Mass (3 elements).

No Catholic who attends only TLMs EVER has to worry about committing sin by missing Mass if it is not offered weekly or if it is so far away that it is a hardship to get there.

The same cannot be said of NO attendees.
(04-08-2010, 07:05 AM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]Another problem with the NO is that since it's invention and for as long as it remains, it takes people away from the TLM. Folks let themselves be convinced that the NO is ok, fine, great, valid yadda yadda as their faith, hence the faith of their children, was being demolished and replaced right in front of their faces.

Not attending the Holy Sacrifice has been business as usual since the mid 60s and has been cause for untold millions of people to lose the faith. This is the most obvious fruit of the NO.

The Holy sacrifice is how we worship and pray, it's how we believe, Lex orandi, lex credendi and all. The NO is not the Holy Sacrifice.

Best to only attend the TLM - if one is unavailable then stay home, read your Missal and take your Spiritual Communion etc. rather than attend a NO service.

This is a very interesting topic.... I had my conversion back to the TRUE Catholic faith and the TRUE Catholic mass early last year... I was once a non-practicing Cafeteria catholic and only attended the NO once every few months..I never got anything out of all that liturgical dance/clap nonsense...Is it possible  many others are going through the same thing or they just go every weekend to go through the motions because of just that, they are forced to beyond their means. I will never understand why many older seniors like this so called :"new mass" better then the old TLM they remember as a kid...It must not be a true mass if the Holy Spirit is not present?? In other words, 9 times out of 10 these NO "masses" seem to have no reverence to God or perhaps there is a diabolical disorientation that isn't allowing the soul to receive grace? So then if that is so, why do they still go??Sorry If I confused you all, but its hard for me to write in words what is in my mind.

Anyway, I'm currently blessed to have a TLM a good 40 mins away at the Blessed Sacrament Shrine, but how do I get my girlfriend to come with me to the Latin mass?? Currently, she seems very devoutly religious, but is seemingly against the TLM.... That is my point in this whole topic, why do some people seem so very Pius, but yet they continue to go to the NO as much as possible without any reservations on how the mass is said?? I'm assuming I will have to try and educate her??
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