FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: Re:Novus Ordo Masses
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
(04-08-2010, 09:28 PM)Stubborn Wrote: [ -> ]Problem is, SSPX has never been tainted except by those whose agenda is the suppression of the Catholic faith and promulgation of the NO. That is fact.

I suspect the average "Catholic in the pew" is greatly influenced by this sort of thing.  I know that I pretty much accepted the common negative attitude to the SSPX until I looked into it more.  With the Pope promulgating Summorum Pontificum and lifting the bishops' excommunications, I realized that I was being too superficial and thoughtless about the SSPX.  
(04-08-2010, 09:36 PM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]Put it this way -- the SSPX does EXACTLY what the Church did pre-council.  They follow each and every doctrine and dogma of the Faith.  They give full support to the perpetual papacy.  How can Catholics like this be considered as, at the present time, not fully a part of the "life of the Church."  In my opinion, they are the epitome of the life of the Church.

I suspect that these are the reasons that the Pope values them as much as he clearly does.  However, it is hard to think of a group as fully part of the life of the Church when they preach that it is a sin to attend the form of Mass that most Catholics attend.  If they keep suggesting that people who attend the NO are not real Catholics or do not attend a real Mass then it is not surprising that these people would feel that something is lacking in the way of unity.
(04-08-2010, 09:44 PM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]Brilliant, INPEFESS.   :tiphat:

And I should say the same of your posts. But, ad majoram Dei gloriam!
(04-08-2010, 10:28 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-08-2010, 09:36 PM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]Put it this way -- the SSPX does EXACTLY what the Church did pre-council.  They follow each and every doctrine and dogma of the Faith.  They give full support to the perpetual papacy.  How can Catholics like this be considered as, at the present time, not fully a part of the "life of the Church."  In my opinion, they are the epitome of the life of the Church.

I suspect that these are the reasons that the Pope values them as much as he clearly does.  However, it is hard to think of a group as fully part of the life of the Church when they preach that it is a sin to attend the form of Mass that most Catholics attend.  If they keep suggesting that people who attend the NO are not real Catholics or do not attend a real Mass then it is not surprising that these people would feel that something is lacking in the way of unity.

Was St. Athanasius "fully a part of the life of the Church" for fervently preaching that those who attend Arian worship were in sin, the MAJORITY position at the time?  Quit telling yourself that our era is exempt from any sort of major Church catastrophe just because it is "enlightened" and you will be MUCH better off.  The crisis in the Church today is worse than the Arian Crisis of the 4th century, becuase of the subverted nature of the thing.


And another thing - the SSPX has never stated that those who attend N.O. Masses, who don't know any better, aren't Catholic.  Also, there cannot be something that is "lacking" in the way of unity.  Either your a part of that unity or you are not.  There is no middle ground.  To think otherwise is to accept the spirit of Vatican II (which states that our "seperated brethren" share in some way unity with the Catholic Church, which only "subsists" in the Roman Catholic Church)  The SSPX are a very important part that exist completely within the UNITY of the Roman Catholic Church, albeit not in her "human element" - her "official structure," but they are very much a part of the Church.
(04-09-2010, 06:26 AM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]Was St. Athanasius "fully a part of the life of the Church" for fervently preaching that those who attend Arian worship were in sin, the MAJORITY position at the time?  Quit telling yourself that our era is exempt from any sort of major Church catastrophe just because it is "enlightened" and you will be MUCH better off.  The crisis in the Church today is worse than the Arian Crisis of the 4th century, becuase of the subverted nature of the thing.

You may rest assured that I do not tell myself any nonsense about modern "enlightenment".  I dare say that I find the idea at least as absurd as you do.  Nor do I look to the majority to find the truth.  I use the principle so succinctly expressed by St. Ambrose:  "Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia".  The visible, earthly headship of the Pope is the easiest way to identify unity within the Church.  When people are claiming that a form of Mass celebrated by the Pope is not likely to fulfil one's Sunday obligation, I find it difficult to consider them in unity with the Church, no matter how right they might be on other matters.

(04-09-2010, 06:26 AM)Nic Wrote: [ -> ]And another thing - the SSPX has never stated that those who attend N.O. Masses, who don't know any better, aren't Catholic.  Also, there cannot be something that is "lacking" in the way of unity.  Either your a part of that unity or you are not.  There is no middle ground.  To think otherwise is to accept the spirit of Vatican II (which states that our "seperated brethren" share in some way unity with the Catholic Church, which only "subsists" in the Roman Catholic Church)  The SSPX are a very important part that exist completely within the UNITY of the Roman Catholic Church, albeit not in her "human element" - her "official structure," but they are very much a part of the Church.

While it might not be an official SSPX position that those who attend NO Masses aren't Catholic, that is the impression one receives when its adherents and supporters call such people NOtards or neo-Caths.  If you tell people that their Sacraments are invalid or displeasing to God, you should not be surprised if those people think you are schismatic.  What clearer sign of disunity could there be than to not recognize another's celebration of the Eucharist.  (The main reason that non-Catholics are not welcome to receive the Eucharist is that it is a sign of unity.)

The "human element" is just as much intrinsic to the Church, as the human element is intrinsic to Christ who was fully human and fully divine.  We can't just dismiss what happens in the "official structure" of the Church as irrelevant.  If we are not unified there, then we are not fully unified, no matter what unity exists in terms of spiritual matters.  To spiritualize the Church to a point of ignoring her visible human structure is a Protestant heresy.

say it isnt so jane



No, no, DK.  I spell my name with a "y".  You need a "Jayne" video like this one:

LOL
sip sip
Deborah,

I don't know if I am going to be much help because I am in a similar situation as you.  I had been away from the Church for 12 years. I returned 2 years ago and found a conservative NO Mass. There really is only one thing they do that bothers me. There isn't a TLM close. 

Maybe you had this experience in the protestant churches as I did:  complete disunity.  Everyone believing what they wanted to believe, different opinions on everything. After 12 years of total confusion and my head swimming until it hurt trying to figure out who was right I called out to God and told Him I felt like I was in a forest and all the trees were calling me and I needed to know who was right.  He led me right back to the Catholic church.

My point is the Catholic Church is one, holy, catholic and apostolic.  The NO Mass is a valid Mass.  The Pope is the one who sits in the Chair of St. Peter.  Read both sides of the situation. There are audio's to listen to on the problems with Vatican II found at EWTN, while still maintaining it is a valid council.  There are many other valid places on the internet to get answers. This site has great answers, too.
Look for a good, conservative NO mass.  That's what I did . It is not the TLM mass but part is said in Latin and part in English.  Music is reverent and many of the people there are very reverent. It is a small town church in a very Catholic town. I don't know if that makes a difference or not.  My parents also were very traditional and in a down town area of the city they lived in found a very conservative NO mass.  I think  you just need to look and find the right place. I tried others and found some go way out of bounds and do many things wrong.

I can't imagine not going to mass on Sundays unless for some reason I can't. I wouldn't skip just because of things happening there unless it is very severe .  Look around and find one that isn't all liberal. If you are like me after being in the Protestant church you have found nourishment and Christ at the Communion table and don't want to be hungry anymore.

Also, there is a new Missal coming out soon that is going to change some of the wording to be closer to the Latin and on of those is the wording  back to "for many."
Probably will be alot of people here who will disagree with me but after being in total confusion in protestantland  it makes a difference. I see problems in the Catholic Church but I know Jesus is there and will guide us and Mary the Mother of the Church is always praying for us.



Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21