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(04-09-2010, 10:04 AM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]No, no, DK.  I spell my name with a "y".  You need a "Jayne" video like this one:

Whenever I see your screen name, I think of Adam Baldwin as Jayne in Firefly.
(04-09-2010, 10:36 AM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2010, 10:04 AM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]No, no, DK.  I spell my name with a "y".  You need a "Jayne" video like this one:

Whenever I see your screen name, I think of Adam Baldwin as Jayne in Firefly.

And so you ought.  My son stood in an autograph line with my Firefly DVD and Adam Baldwin signed it "To Jayne from Jayne".
Also, Deborah.

Pray the rosary every day, pray to St. Joseph, pray to the saints.  St. Joseph is a great saint to pray to because he listened to God and led his family safely and he will help your family, too. Ask for guidance from heaven.  The saints will pray for you. Start novenas, ask for wisdom.  Always try to have a novena going for you and your family for God to lead you to the Catholic church he has for you where you can worship reverently every Sunday, Lord's day.  Even after you find the church pray novenas, they are great.
nice derail transition.   I love Firefly. 

[Image: jayneh.JPG]
(04-09-2010, 10:23 AM)BettyM Wrote: [ -> ]My point is the Catholic Church is one, holy, catholic and apostolic. 

The Novus Ordo/Post V2 Church would not agree with that statement.  The Vatican-2 clergy do not believe in the Mark of Unity.  They say that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic, and consequently can also be found elsewhere like in the Buddhist and Hindu beliefs.  I quote V2. "Hindus seek ... a flight to God with love and trust." http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_counc...te_en.html

Quote:The NO Mass is a valid Mass... Look for a good, conservative NO mass.
Then you should attend any and all NO services regardless of the theatrics of the NO priests, or whether or not he even performs a consecration, whether or not he uses dorito chips and kool-aid, whether he does it himself or uses clowns or mimes or balloons or semi nude women.   His bishop has already approved the theatrics for his diocese, otherwise his NO priests would not feel emboldened to do what they do.  BettyM, if you believe the NO services are valid, then how come you want to seek out just the conservative NO masses?  
:jester:
Even Clown and semi-nude NO masses have been approved by levels higher than your average parish cleric!!  Do you want to be disobedient to your NO bishops when he has approved the clown masses and other liturgical deviations?

Quote:The Pope is the one who sits in the Chair of St. Peter. 
No one is disputing this.  ???

Quote:Read both sides of the situation.

1.  The NO is at best uncatholic, at worst, the worship of man.  It was invented mid-1960s
2.  What we call Catholic Tradition is from apostolic times.

Quote:There are audio's to listen to on the problems with Vatican II found at EWTN, while still maintaining it is a valid council. 
It is dogma that the Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ.  Explain the subsists of V2?

Quote:I can't imagine not going to mass on Sundays unless for some reason I can't.

No one who is Catholic wants to avoid going to Mass. 
:shame:
But if the liturgical performance at the nearby parish is anything goes, why would anyone in their right mind want to expose themselves to clowns, undressed persons, halloween witch customs? And even if the NO mass is con-servative, the liturgy is so unCatholic, unchristian, that it would be preferable to go to a conservative Baptist service (hypothetically speaking)  :laughing:

(04-09-2010, 12:01 PM)Ex_NO Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2010, 10:23 AM)BettyM Wrote: [ -> ]My point is the Catholic Church is one, holy, catholic and apostolic. 

The Novus Ordo/Post V2 Church would not agree with that statement.  The Vatican-2 clergy do not believe in the Mark of Unity.  They say that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic, and consequently can also be found elsewhere like in the Buddhist and Hindu beliefs.  I quote V2. "Hindus seek ... a flight to God with love and trust." http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_counc...te_en.html

The post-V2 Church certainly does believe that "The Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic".  That is a section heading in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and many pages are devoted to the topic. There is no official Catholic teaching that the Church of Christ subsists in Buddhist or Hindu beliefs.  The word "subsist" does not even appear in Nostra Aetate, the Vatican II document concerning non-Christian religions including those.  All that document says is that there is a genuine search for God and some good in other religions and that Catholics ought to recognize this.  The word "subsist" is used in describing how Catholicism is related to non-Catholic Christianity.  The Council documents concerning this relationship are Lumen Gentium  and Unitatis Redintegratio.  These three documents were indeed being interpreted by many in a way inconsistent with Catholic tradition so a clarifying document Dominus Iesus was issued: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...us_en.html.

(04-09-2010, 12:01 PM)Ex_NO Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2010, 10:23 AM)BettyM Wrote: [ -> ]The NO Mass is a valid Mass... Look for a good, conservative NO mass.
Then you should attend any and all NO services regardless of the theatrics of the NO priests, or whether or not he even performs a consecration, whether or not he uses dorito chips and kool-aid, whether he does it himself or uses clowns or mimes or balloons or semi nude women.   His bishop has already approved the theatrics for his diocese, otherwise his NO priests would not feel emboldened to do what they do.  BettyM, if you believe the NO services are valid, then how come you want to seek out just the conservative NO masses?  
:jester:
Even Clown and semi-nude NO masses have been approved by levels higher than your average parish cleric!!  Do you want to be disobedient to your NO bishops when he has approved the clown masses and other liturgical deviations?

As just about every contributor to this thread has pointed out, we want more from Mass than it merely be valid.  A person can believe that the NO Mass is valid and still recognize when abuses and irreverence occur in it.  We can acknowledge its validity (which, by the way, would not exist with with doritos and kool-aid) while rejecting and wanting to avoid the problems.  There has probably been a TLM celebrated with abuses at some point in history.  Does that mean that everyone should throw every single TLM?  Of course not.  Then why apply such reasoning to the NO?
(04-09-2010, 01:11 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2010, 12:01 PM)Ex_NO Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2010, 10:23 AM)BettyM Wrote: [ -> ]My point is the Catholic Church is one, holy, catholic and apostolic. 

The Novus Ordo/Post V2 Church would not agree with that statement.  The Vatican-2 clergy do not believe in the Mark of Unity.  They say that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic, and consequently can also be found elsewhere like in the Buddhist and Hindu beliefs.  I quote V2. "Hindus seek ... a flight to God with love and trust." http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_counc...te_en.html

The post-V2 Church certainly does believe that "The Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic".  That is a section heading in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and many pages are devoted to the topic. There is no official Catholic teaching that the Church of Christ subsists in Buddhist or Hindu beliefs.  The word "subsist" does not even appear in Nostra Aetate, the Vatican II document concerning non-Christian religions including those.  All that document says is that there is a genuine search for God and some good in other religions and that Catholics ought to recognize this.  The word "subsist" is used in describing how Catholicism is related to non-Catholic Christianity.  The Council documents concerning this relationship are Lumen Gentium  and Unitatis Redintegratio.  These three documents were indeed being interpreted by many in a way inconsistent with Catholic tradition so a clarifying document Dominus Iesus was issued: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...us_en.html.

(04-09-2010, 12:01 PM)Ex_NO Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2010, 10:23 AM)BettyM Wrote: [ -> ]The NO Mass is a valid Mass... Look for a good, conservative NO mass.
Then you should attend any and all NO services regardless of the theatrics of the NO priests, or whether or not he even performs a consecration, whether or not he uses dorito chips and kool-aid, whether he does it himself or uses clowns or mimes or balloons or semi nude women.   His bishop has already approved the theatrics for his diocese, otherwise his NO priests would not feel emboldened to do what they do.  BettyM, if you believe the NO services are valid, then how come you want to seek out just the conservative NO masses?  
:jester:
Even Clown and semi-nude NO masses have been approved by levels higher than your average parish cleric!!  Do you want to be disobedient to your NO bishops when he has approved the clown masses and other liturgical deviations?

As just about every contributor to this thread has pointed out, we want more from Mass than it merely be valid.  A person can believe that the NO Mass is valid and still recognize when abuses and irreverence occur in it.   We can acknowledge its validity (which, by the way, would not exist with with doritos and kool-aid) while rejecting and wanting to avoid the problems.  There has probably been a TLM celebrated with abuses at some point in history.  Does that mean that everyone should throw every single TLM?  Of course not.  Then why apply such reasoning to the NO?

Simple (in my own opinion)...

The Novus Ordo "mass" is not the Catholic Mass, period.  It's a 40 year old fabricated man-made service.  Whether it's perfomed with puppets and kool-aide or with incense and Gregorian Chant, it's not the Catholic Mass.

(04-09-2010, 10:48 AM)BettyM Wrote: [ -> ]Also, Deborah.

Pray the rosary every day, pray to St. Joseph, pray to the saints.   St. Joseph is a great saint to pray to because he listened to God and led his family safely and he will help your family, too. Ask for guidance from heaven.  The saints will pray for you. Start novenas, ask for wisdom.  Always try to have a novena going for you and your family for God to lead you to the Catholic church he has for you where you can worship reverently every Sunday, Lord's day.  Even after you find the church pray novenas, they are great.




Novena's are a great tool or help for us if we take advantage of them. I do. Today being the 9th is the first day of the St Theresa 24 glory be's novena, on the 9th to the 17th of every month. I do it every month. I also have a constant novena to St Anthony going for a very special intention. I say his chaplet everyday. The rosary without question. I do wonder how many Catholics take advantage of novena's?
(04-09-2010, 01:31 PM)mike6240 Wrote: [ -> ]Simple (in my own opinion)...

The Novus Ordo "mass" is not the Catholic Mass, period.  It's a 40 year old fabricated man-made service.  Whether it's perfomed with puppets and kool-aide or with incense and Gregorian Chant, it's not the Catholic Mass.

In a debate one would put forward arguments in support of his position, but I suppose there is no reason why you should not simply assert your opinion. You should realize, though, that there is nothing very convincing about this.
(04-09-2010, 01:55 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-09-2010, 01:31 PM)mike6240 Wrote: [ -> ]Simple (in my own opinion)...

The Novus Ordo "mass" is not the Catholic Mass, period.  It's a 40 year old fabricated man-made service.  Whether it's perfomed with puppets and kool-aide or with incense and Gregorian Chant, it's not the Catholic Mass.

In a debate one would put forward arguments in support of his position, but I suppose there is no reason why you should not simply assert your opinion. You should realize, though, that there is nothing very convincing about this.

These are not mere opinions or just assertions.  Did Pope Gregory say the Novus Ordo?  Chances not.  NO was made up (and is still ever-evolving) since the mid-1960s.
Are there clown, puppet, nude mass out there?  Try youtube and google for those topics.  Pictures are worth a thousand words.

NO Mass = Puppet Mess = Kool Aid Mess = Nude Mess
NO Mass + Latin + Incense + Gregorian = Puppet Mess + Latin + Incense + Gregorian = Kool Aid Mess +  ... = Nude Mess + ...  = NOT a Catholic Mass

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