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Full Version: Are we headed for schism
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I may be opening the wrong box, but I have a true desire to know the opinions of those much more learned than myself on this question:

"With the current scandals within the church and the obvious divisions created by the extremes of Vatican II, is the church headed for schism? Are we destined to divide along traditional vs modernist lines?"

From what I see on this and other forums there seems to be a widening gap between the modernist/leftist members and those who desire a return to a traditional conservative church. It appears to me that current scandals are being used by satan and those who would rest control of the Church away from Rome and redirect authority to themselves. Am I wrong with my feeling that the "Protestantization" that has been a result of the affects of V II is destroying our cohesion as the One Universal Church? I am 54 and have only known the post V II church, but in my lifetime I have seen minor and major changes which seem to be moving The Church further away from Her traditional Beliefs. 
I think it can be very subjective depending on one's situation locally. On the whole, I think the Church in the US is trending traditional. I don't see schism on the horizon. I know situations at some parishes are dire, but believe me, help is on the way!



I think we already are in a de facto schism. There seem to be a few different "wings" of the Church; the traditionalists, the conservatives/neo-cons, the people who simply go to Mass every Sunday but simply don't think to much about Church affairs, and the outright liberals. The outright liberals are simply practicing an entirely different religion than the rest of us (whatever disputes "the rest of us"  may have with one another). On many issues they simply ignore the dictates of their proper religious authorities, mostly because they simply don't recognize the concept of hierarchy. That's a different religion. There may be some outward similarities, but there are similarities with us and the protestants too.
Food for thought.




Yes, I love to break it down....Please Bare with me.
IMHO,
1. "The Traditionalist"- Very Strong Faith, they have received the Holy Spirit and the Saints & Angels are protecting and watching over them, so they know whats going on in the world today.
2. "The Conservatives/Neo-Cons"- Heart is in the right place, but brain is deluded by the modern world--Soul is in a constant battle between the devil and the Holy Spirit, the Traditionalist in them is there somewhere, but they can't reach deep inside. Their  true intentions are being deluded by something unforeseen.(This is a hard one to understand)
3. "The people who go to mass every Sunday, but simply don't think too much about Church affairs"- These people need to be educated because they are simply very naive. In some instances a few have had conversions and became Traditionalists..I use to be one of these, but most continue to let the blind churchmen lead them. They think believe God is taking care of the NO and everything will work out real soon. You can probably call some in this group neo-liberals.
4. "Outright Liberals"- I call these people Progressives or Socialists..These are the poor souls with Obama stickers on their car in the church parking lot- They believe in contraception, sex before marriage, and even believe abortion/euthanasia in some instances are perfectly okay..These individuals think Jesus was a Communist, think they are worshiping Jesus, but in actuality are following and/or used as a tool by the Devil to help deceive the world... They probably lost 99% of their soul, so unfortunately they are most likely lost. I do believe very few(maybe 1%) in #4 can do a 180 with a special grace from  the Blessed Mother, but these are very few and far between and usually need true miracles!

Perhaps I'm a little off base with each label, so anyone please feel free to enlighten me.
(04-10-2010, 10:29 AM)Beatissima Mariae Wrote: [ -> ]I think it can be very subjective depending on one's situation locally. On the whole, I think the Church in the US is trending traditional. I don't see schism on the horizon. I know situations at some parishes are dire, but believe me, help is on the way!

Yes Beatissima Mariae, I do believe some kind of help is on the way too. Whatever you think of his opinions, John L. Allen's book well researched The Future Church leaves one in no doubt that it is not simply the US church which is "trending conservative", if not "trending Traditional" yet. The whole Catholic world is at least trending conservative ... Meaning liberal dissidence though not dead, IS slowly dying. The situation appears far better than twenty years ago to me ...

Read Iota Unum or Malachi Martin from the mid 80's and it becomes evident I think that the situation is not quite as horrendous now as then. Though it's still horrendous of course ...

Some here will argue I suppose that trending neo-con is not an improvement, but I have to say there is ground for some hope in this direction.
The waste majority of the Church still is united with the Pope. Extremist on both side are on schism, which means to deny the supremacy of the acting pope.
The "liberals" are heretics, and therefore not even Catholic.  The worst enemy to Tradition has been the NeoCatholic conservatives.  But they got taken to the woodshed 3 times now (For all/For many, Motu Propio, and the excommunications made void) that they seem to be a little more cautious.  Another enemy from within are the Charismatic heretics who have the "slaying in the spirit (small "s") heretical act.  But they seem to be such whackos, I can't see their numbers getting much bigger.

I think we are already in a schism.  Just look at what happened in Austria with Fr. Wagner.  The NeoCatholics are at least loyal to the Pope so they will follow him when he (probably not Pope Benedict) cracks down and cleans house.

I think the big schisms will take place in Europe.  I don't see it happening much in the USA.  Don't know about Latin America.  There are so few Catholics down there anymore, it really doesn't matter.  How about Canada?
Canada? Boy O boy wouldn't it be nice to have a sketch of that part of the puzzle? Calling all Canadians!!!!
tim
I have always been fascinated by the thought of the Stations of the Cross as Historical prophecy of the final days of the Church.
I think we are about to experience the " Cruel Roman (modern nwo pagans) soldiers tear off Jesus' (Church)  clothes (worldly respect).
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