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So here's me asking for some fraternal correction: why wouldn't a vernacular Tridentine Mass silence the liberals?

Suppose we concede that there were pastoral changes that were necessary in 1959.  Suppose we also concede that conducting the Mass in the vernacular was one of these changes.  I don't believe this, but I concede this for the sake of argument.  The form of the Mass is not its language: the Catholic sense of wariness when witnessing the mass of Paul VI has nothing to do with its language, and everything to do with its hybridization of the prayers of the Mass with Protestant prayer, forsaking the declaration that it is a propitiatory sacrifice for an erroneous  declaration of celebration, memorial, or other nonsense.  Why could we not restore the Tridentine Mass, but in the vernacular? We would have satisfied the pastoral demand for vernacular worship and the necessity that we preserve our the worship of God.
(05-01-2010, 04:51 PM)ardens Wrote: [ -> ]So here's me asking for some fraternal correction: why wouldn't a vernacular Tridentine Mass silence the liberals?

Suppose we concede that there were pastoral changes that were necessary in 1959.  Suppose we also concede that conducting the Mass in the vernacular was one of these changes.  I don't believe this, but I concede this for the sake of argument.  The form of the Mass is not its language: the Catholic sense of wariness when witnessing the mass of Paul VI has nothing to do with its language, and everything to do with its hybridization of the prayers of the Mass with Protestant prayer, forsaking the declaration that it is a propitiatory sacrifice for an erroneous  declaration of celebration, memorial, or other nonsense.  Why could we not restore the Tridentine Mass, but in the vernacular? We would have satisfied the pastoral demand for vernacular worship and the necessity that we preserve our the worship of God.

I agree. While I absolutely think the Mass should be in Latin, I would much rather have the vernacular Tridentine be the "OF" than the NO. The law of prayer should never have been changed.
(05-01-2010, 04:51 PM)ardens Wrote: [ -> ]So here's me asking for some fraternal correction: why wouldn't a vernacular Tridentine Mass silence the liberals?

Because Latin is just a symbol of the real conflict.  The hatred out there for the TLM isn't about the language; it's about the freedom the new Mass gives them to do their own thing and leave out anything they're not comfortable with.  That's why, like I said in another thread, they'd scream just as loud if they were forced to say the NO by the book like the Pope does it, with no indults or exceptions or ad-libs.
(05-01-2010, 04:28 PM)churchesoffortwayne Wrote: [ -> ]I tried to get two priests to teach me latin, one said he had not the time with all his other obligations, and the other said it would not be something I would be able to commit to from such a long distance to the rectory were the local fssp priest Father Gabbet stays.

He said try rosetta stone, I am like I dont want to pay the kind of money and I could be taught better by a human who can teach me one on one and tell me stuff about the pronunciation and shortcuts that a computer can not.

signed Jeremy L Churches of Fort Wayne

"I am like I dont want to pay the kind of money" - i just think you should teach me for free, Fr.  :pazzo:

did you offer to pay either priest to teach you Latin one on one?  or did you just expect a priest to give hours of his limited spare time to teach you Latin? 

is there no college offering Latin near you?  if not, why don't you try to find 15-30 people who are willing to pay for a course in Latin?  then look for a teacher.  there are probably others in your area who could teach you Latin but it's possible that one of the priests would be willing to make the time to do it for a group of people, not just because he'd be paid but because he'd be sharing his knowledge of Latin with a group, which is a better use of his time if you think about it.  plus you'd have other students to practice with, which would help you and them.

if that doesn't pan out, or while you're waiting to see if it does, investigate the free online Latin resources.  you could be memorizing verb conjugations and noun declensions today, as well as vocabulary.  there are sites with spoken and chanted Latin for you to listen to.  you can also listen to any free Italian audio because ecclesiastical Latin is pronounced like Italian.  you could also try libraries to see what they have that you can check out.  you may have to return the materials every so often but they would be free.

otherwise, buy computer programs and/or tapes and books.  i have read that linguists don't think much of Rosetta Stone so see the thread that Jayne referred to.  audio programs and tapes can certainly teach you pronunciation and language programs may well be better at teaching Latin than a priest if he has never taught Latin or has not taught it in years.  speaking a language well doesn't mean you can teach it well. 

(05-01-2010, 02:50 PM)Mhoram Wrote: [ -> ]Our new bishop in Springfield, Illinois, Thomas Paprocki, was just appointed a couple weeks ago.  One piece of information on the net about him is that he received some sort of honor from the Latin Liturgy Association for his support of them over the years.  They encourage the use of Latin in either Mass, so they're not TLM-only, but apparently he's very pro-Latin.

I think everyone (including his opponents) considers Pope Benedict's episcopal choices to be very orthodox, and being orthodox pretty much means being pro-Latin by definition.  After all, even Vatican II stresses the importance of Latin in the liturgy.

Interesting and encouraging, Mhoram. I think because I am in Europe, the situation may look quite different. I pay what attention I can, to the situation in France and from my limited perspective, it does look rather different there.

BUT I emphasise my "limited" perspective, because this is precisely why I was asking. I need to get a better global picture about this!. Again if anyone knows a good comprehensive article on the web about the episcopal choices since 2005, I would be very interested and grateful...
(05-02-2010, 09:50 AM)Roger Buck Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-01-2010, 02:50 PM)Mhoram Wrote: [ -> ]Our new bishop in Springfield, Illinois, Thomas Paprocki, was just appointed a couple weeks ago.  One piece of information on the net about him is that he received some sort of honor from the Latin Liturgy Association for his support of them over the years.  They encourage the use of Latin in either Mass, so they're not TLM-only, but apparently he's very pro-Latin.

I think everyone (including his opponents) considers Pope Benedict's episcopal choices to be very orthodox, and being orthodox pretty much means being pro-Latin by definition.  After all, even Vatican II stresses the importance of Latin in the liturgy.

Interesting and encouraging, Mhoram. I think because I am in Europe, the situation may look quite different. I pay what attention I can, to the situation in France and from my limited perspective, it does look rather different there.

BUT I emphasise my "limited" perspective, because this is precisely why I was asking. I need to get a better global picture about this!. Again if anyone knows a good comprehensive article on the web about the episcopal choices since 2005, I would be very interested and grateful...

are you saying that you think new bishops in Europe appointed by Benedict XVI have not been as traditional as those he's chosen in the US?  if so, could that be because there are so few traditional bishops there and that the current bishops would ostracize a new bishop if he were traditional?  i'm remembering the fuss the German bishops put up about a bishop His Holiness tried to appoint.  as i remember, the man was only being named an assistant bishop but the bishops were up in arms as if he were being promoted over all of them.


Well I know he teaches the boys learning to serve, I have been to a couple of the practices after mass with his promission of course.  he talks about the langage itself after we practice the pronuciations of the responses of the altar servers say.

the other one has a lifetime teaching licence in indiana for teaching latin, he is over 80 though but you would never know it with his scedual even though he is retired. Father Leuw, he is a kind and wise man the kind of thing that only comes with age mild and laid back when they talk to people but hard as a rock in their teachings.

There is two collages that teach it on is st frances they want $500 a credit hour and the other is concordia a missura synode seminary in fort wayne.  there are a few but no one has the time to give me a few lessons to learn the basics.

I can do the responces fairly well now for serving and can do many prayers in our sacred langage but I want to learn how to speak it a bit, the alphabet and the words that you would use as if you were talking in conversation, not just prayers though they are higher by vertue of what they are.
Perhaps we should have at least one powerful Catholic confessional State in the world where Latin is the official language?
(05-04-2010, 03:21 AM)churchesoffortwayne Wrote: [ -> ]I can do the responces fairly well now for serving and can do many prayers in our sacred langage but I want to learn how to speak it a bit, the alphabet and the words that you would use as if you were talking in conversation, not just prayers though they are higher by vertue of what they are.

In the God old times there was an office in Vatican which created Latin words for the new things in our word. The reason for the need was explained by the anecdote:

The Benedictines required the novices not to talk at all, and if the must talk, talk only Latin. So the young novice, who was in change for the fireplace, somehow managed the fireplace to explode. He run to the master of the novices yellibg: 'Calefactor fecit boom.'

As the Jews who wanted to survive after the destruction of the second Temple, changed the Sacred Language to Aramaic, later Ladino, and turned back to the Hebrew only quite recently, so the Church abandoned the dead language for those who want the survival of the magisterial hierarchical Church. It is more than the understanding, it is the need to feel the world, so pray not only with the tongues and may be with the mind, but with the heart too.
Here is a good argument why the Mass should be in Latin.

http://athanasiuscm.blogspot.com/2010/04...latin.html

Ignore glgas. His arguments smack of Modernism, Protestantism, or relativism, word for word, in virtually every one of his posts. 
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