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Hey everyone. I would like to first add that this is not an attempt at trolling. I would like to discuss with some of the people here who believe that illegal immigrants should be expelled from the country. I know its a touchy topic but where with me. I want to know what you would say to this argument which is what  I have heard. I am on the sidelines admittedly but I am just curious. Here it is and not it is not my own:

Are we Americans or are we Catholics first? The immigrants from Mexico who are drug dealers or other disreputable characters should be thrown out but not the others. We Catholics have a duty to help our fellow man spiritually and materially! Those people who are crossing the border need our help as they are poor and impoverished!

If you disagree you are being like WIlliam of Occam! He believed that hte government should be first! Even priests should go with the king's orders if it contradicted the pope's orders for things such as taxation and following the laws of the kingdom! Your embracing Occam's mistakes!

Again I am just an observer looking at both sides. Thanks
BlessedKarl, you are correct.  We must be Catholics first.

I have worked as an immigration attorney with Catholic Social Services for almost 7 years.  It is my vocation.  And I am a traditional Catholic. 

I will be happy to answer any legal questions that come up in this thread.

Owl
I'm pretty ignorant but in general my feeling about illegal immigrants is that they have broken the law. It hardly seems fair if you have one group of people who want to move to this country who are going through all the necessary paperwork, etc, and another goup comes rushing in and expecting to be taken care of and accepted. Where's the sympathy for legal immigrants?
illegal immigration is a problem that must be stopped and this includes shutting down and closing the border. There is nothing wrong with immigration as long as it is legal. Every country has the right to control its borders and every immigrant must respect the laws of nation state.

We can help these poor and impoverished people by pushing for a safe and humane legal immigration system, as well as protecting the border with fences and troops. The best protection for the poor immigrants is too keep them from crossing the border where many die of thirst, starvation and suffer robberry, rape, murder.

Ultimately the only way to help Mexican immigrants is too actually improve the country of Mexico itself so that they can stay in their homeland. Most of the immigrants don't want to leave their country, but do so out of necessity. The political corruption, violence, gangs, narco mafias, drugs, crime, NAFTA, no jobs, no wages, and a broken economy is what drives immigrants here.
If we can fix Mexico and make it a prosperous just Catholic nation of subsidiarity and with the Social Reign of Christ the King, the immigration problem is solved.

I think is completely unrealistic that we can get many of the illegal immigrants expelled from the United States. The only realistic solution is stopping illegal immigration right now and preventing more from coming illegally.  
I have great sympathy for the Mexicans who have to come here illegally to support their families, and in their position I could see myself doing the same thing.  I dont think opening up the borders is a wise course of action though.  I wish we could fix our system so that coming here legally was a viable alternative, and maybe Mexico could stop being such a shithole so the people could support themselves and their families there.
We're Catholic first, of course, which leads to several points:

We should not encourage the breakup of families, as for instance happens when a family sends one person to enter another country illegally to send money home or have an anchor baby.

We should not encourage people to break the law.  Render unto Caesar and all that.  As a guy named Brian English said on another forum, 'Jesus never said, "Whatever you lobby the Roman Senate for for the least of my brothers, that you have lobbied the Roman Senate for for me."'

We should not encourage wealthy countries to skim the most ambitious and hard-working people from poorer countries who have a greater need their contributions.

We should not allow businesses to break the law by hiring people whose illegal status makes them cheaper because of the benefits they don't require.

If there are people in some other country who need our help, then by all means as Catholics we should help them -- in their country.  There's no reason they should have to sneak across a national border to become our brethren in a spiritual sense.  If we have a Catholic obligation to provide free health care for poor Mexicans living in the USA, for instance, then we have just as great an obligation to provide free health care for poor Mexicans living in Mexico -- or poor Haitians living in Haiti, or poor Tibetans living in Tibet, etc.
The USA was a success because it was a nation of producers and creators who relied on hard work.  The original people  escaped from parasites to a land where they were allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labor.  Back before the arrival of Jewish socialists from Germany and Poland, and the progressive takeover, we could afford to absorb a lot of immigration, because an immigrant was forced to accept our culture of hard work.  They had no choice because government was minuscule.  Any assistance was private and/or from the Church, and only temporary.  In many cases, the immigrants came from hard working cultures (Bavarian Catholics, Poles, etc...), and thus thrived in our land because the oppressive, grinding boot of the government was removed from the back of their necks.

However, now immigrants are turned into parasites from day one.  Illegal immigrants tend to be hard workers.  Consider the ones who jump the fence have to have a lot of self reliance to go through all the hassle.  So the first ones are usually great people.  But soon they bring over their families, who suck our money out of the hospitals, and suck our education money, and the welfare money.  Before long, they are utterly ruined.  And they flock to the government like a swarm of parasites because that is their culture.  They are used to a big nanny government and socialism, and brought up to believe that successful people are somehow crooked.

It is similar to the Yankee takeover of the South.  A few come down to our cities and see how nice it is.  They are amazed at the business friendly environment and low taxes, as well as the freedom.  Before long the swarm comes in and the city is turned into New York.  (I watched as Charlotte was turned from a secret treasure into another liberal big city).

The free market, hard working, self sufficient culture that made this country great is being diluted by parasites, and is probably already damaged beyond repair.  We can't tolerate a single one more, but they keep flooding in.

As far as being Catholics, the CHURCH should preach to the people in Mexico to give up their pagan culture, and end all of the corruption.  It also must preach free market capitalism as put forth by Rerum Novarum with an emphasis on the absolute right to private property and the moral imperative to have limited government to allow subsidiarity.  Until that happens, then Mexico is doomed.

As far as illegals (first generation), they are hard workers and put a lot of Americans to shame.  And if I were in their shoes, I also would want to leave a country run by Mexicans.
I am completely torn on this one.  I am law-and-order through-and-through.....and if you snuck in here, you broke the law.

On the other hand, I am also free market through-and-through....and if you wanna come over here and make your living with your own two hands, then God bless America, it's the land of opportunity - I say go for it.

On the whole, with our laws and our border security the way they are, we are practically begging for people to cross the Mexican border illegally.

Now, I don't live in a border state, so I don't personally have to deal with high illegal alien demand for public services, higher taxes as a result, (possibly) higher crime, and all that, so maybe I am a little biased.

Just my two cents.
(04-20-2010, 07:18 PM)BlessedKarl Wrote: [ -> ]Are we Americans or are we Catholics first?

Being American last for 80 years (may be) if someone is storng 90 years; no way to extend significantly.

Being Christian is for the eternity, and can be lost forever.
(04-20-2010, 08:39 PM)DesperatelySeeking Wrote: [ -> ]On the other hand, I am also free market through-and-through....and if you wanna come over here and make your living with your own two hands, then God bless America, it's the land of opportunity - I say go for it.

I'd agree, except that we're not talking about a free market today, we're talking about a welfare state.  Some people want to come make a living with their own two hands, true, but others will come for the free goodies, and there's nothing in place to encourage the first group and discourage the second.  On the contrary: the Democratic Party and race-baiting groups like La Raza have every reason to encourage the second group.

There's a quote that sums it up well: "Democracy, immigration, multi-culturalism--pick any two."  You can have lots of immigrants from different cultures, as long as you don't allow much freedom or let them vote power for their groups.  You can have a democracy with lots of immigrants, as long as they're all the same culture, because they'll get along and tend to play by the same rules.  You can have a multi-cultural democracy as long as you keep immigration to a trickle, so the various cultures don't have to worry about newbies stealing their piece of the pie.  But to try to have all three at once is national suicide.  

We're pretty committed to democracy, and multi-culturalism is our new national religion, so that leaves immigration as the one thing we might be willing to cut back on in self-defense.  I suspect when the official unemployment numbers hit 20% (meaning real unemployment will be 30% or higher), this problem will start to solve itself.
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