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Full Version: Francisco Franco was a hero.
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When I was growing up there were several Basque immigrant families in our parish in eastern Washington, often coming over as shephards, then setteling down to farm when they could save enough.  There is a substantial Basque community in eastern Idaho also.  They are among the most industrious, hard working, and pious people I know.

They will give you a very different perspective of Generalissimo.
yes they will just as a catholic from Barcelona after the red terror would. as a matter of fact no one will come out of any event unsaved. particularly a monstrous civil war which the church through the Spanish bishops declareda crusade. no one will ever be  hero to all. hell even CHRIST the son of God had and has his detractors. so rather  then use the words of a people and a region with a grudge use evidence. this is about the church in this thread according to benno not just basque nationalist politics. and lets remember the basques have a grudge against France to. Being a hero to the faith doesn't mean saint and it doesn't mean perfect. if Franco would not of done what he did with the other generals (keep in mind Franco didn't lead the revolt at the beginning) what do you thing would of happened to the faith in Spain? sadly its not in good shape at present but thats a different thread. sides had to be taken. and Franco choose the faith.


Okay, back on track, as you say, DK. Franco fought real evil and saved the Church in Spain. The issue of the Basque are separate as they define themselves as not being Spanish. I have heard that Opus Dei, double crossed him, is that horsefeathers ? 
tim
well really it was the church after vpoo who betrayed Franco and catholic spain. thw wrok just followed vpoo. the Church betrayed him. and history will not look kindly on that. what you are seeing in Spain and western Europe now but in catholic Spain is a direct result of the Church betray after vpoo
Franco was as hero.


Check out liberal Jesuit Walsh's book on Opus.  He describes Opus' attempt to take the country over in 1968[?].  The book is good in a sense, because Walsh reports things that he thinks are scandalous.  The things he reports are scandalous, yes, to secular folk, but not to Catholics.  Some things, however, aren't so laudatory about Opus, but perhaps a more judicious appreciation of them could explain some of the difficulties, like how Opus doesn't seem to respect the seal of the confessional.  That looks pretty bad, in fact.

http://books.google.com/books?id=RRiKumjyhmQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=thomas+walsh+opus+dei&source=bl&ots=cy0zFZcPSI&sig=DBHbhnJPp09HrYP7haOKHXoLicI&hl=en&ei=iejaS4hDiJCwA-e7-dQB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=thomas%20walsh%20opus%20dei&f=false
The Basques, like the Cataláns, don't like Franco, because they are very independent-minded, and prefer autonomy for their homelands, and Franco opposed that, preferring a strong, unified Spain.  Because of their opposition to this, they were punished by Franco, to the point that even their language was suppressed.
Now, they have a much larger degree of autonomy from the central government than was had before, but there are still hard feelings for the Government in Madrid, so although the Catalans and Basques have regained their language and cultural identity, they will probably never forget the rougher times that they faced under Franco's governance.
(04-30-2010, 10:38 AM)Texican Wrote: [ -> ]The Basques, like the Cataláns, don't like Franco, because they are very independent-minded, and prefer autonomy for their homelands, and Franco opposed that, preferring a strong, unified Spain.  Because of their opposition to this, they were punished by Franco, to the point that even their language was suppressed.
Now, they have a much larger degree of autonomy from the central government than was had before, but there are still hard feelings for the Government in Madrid, so although the Catalans and Basques have regained their language and cultural identity, they will probably never forget the rougher times that they faced under Franco's governance.

That's probably lamentably true.
(04-30-2010, 11:56 AM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2010, 10:38 AM)Texican Wrote: [ -> ]The Basques, like the Cataláns, don't like Franco, because they are very independent-minded, and prefer autonomy for their homelands, and Franco opposed that, preferring a strong, unified Spain.  Because of their opposition to this, they were punished by Franco, to the point that even their language was suppressed.
Now, they have a much larger degree of autonomy from the central government than was had before, but there are still hard feelings for the Government in Madrid, so although the Catalans and Basques have regained their language and cultural identity, they will probably never forget the rougher times that they faced under Franco's governance.

That's probably lamentably true.

Nobody has mentioned that the Basques, as represented by the Basque Nationalist Party, supported the commie anarchist Republican side during the Spanish Civil War!  So of course they were punished by Franco, and deserved it.  They sold out the Catholic cause in Spain for nationalist interests.  It's like American Catholics who voted for Obama, but worse. 
(04-30-2010, 12:36 PM)PeterII Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2010, 11:56 AM)Augstine Baker Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-30-2010, 10:38 AM)Texican Wrote: [ -> ]The Basques, like the Cataláns, don't like Franco, because they are very independent-minded, and prefer autonomy for their homelands, and Franco opposed that, preferring a strong, unified Spain.  Because of their opposition to this, they were punished by Franco, to the point that even their language was suppressed.
Now, they have a much larger degree of autonomy from the central government than was had before, but there are still hard feelings for the Government in Madrid, so although the Catalans and Basques have regained their language and cultural identity, they will probably never forget the rougher times that they faced under Franco's governance.

That's probably lamentably true.

Nobody has mentioned that the Basques, as represented by the Basque Nationalist Party, supported the commie anarchist Republican side during the Spanish Civil War!  So of course they were punished by Franco, and deserved it.   They sold out the Catholic cause in Spain for nationalist interests.  It's like American Catholics who voted for Obama, but worse. 

It just so happens that so many times, apparently reasonable people saying reasonable things conceal the whole story when they talk about this.  One of the most commonplace late 20th Century discussions tend to Allende, which, as the myth goes, was a democratically elected president of Chile, who was disappeared after a coup by an "right-wing" dictator.
(04-30-2010, 12:36 PM)PeterII Wrote: [ -> ]Nobody has mentioned that the Basques, as represented by the Basque Nationalist Party, supported the commie anarchist Republican side during the Spanish Civil War!  So of course they were punished by Franco, and deserved it.   They sold out the Catholic cause in Spain for nationalist interests.  It's like American Catholics who voted for Obama, but worse. 

This is an interesting discussion.  I am a bit at the mercy of what my Basque acquaintences tell me (I'm talking about people who are now in their 70's and 80's, who immigrated to the US in the 1970's and 1980's).  The issue, as I have been informed, is not how Franco delt with the Basque Nationalist Party (the current Spanish government is still dealing with Basque extrimists, and some sectors consider that a greater threat than the Islamic extremist faction) , but how Franco delt with anybody who was Basque.  Evidently, according to the people I've talked to, good old Francisco couldn't let go of the fact that the Spanish Civil War had ended, and he couldn't resisit the temptation to abuse and torture innocent people, who just happened to be, by accident of birth,  Vasco's, as they are called up here in the northwest.
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