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Francos fruits saved his nation. Yes indeed he is a hero for that. Curious what a man like would of done when over half your nation begins to kill priests by the thousands? Pray do tell? Yes by his fruets and what of your fruits? Beside your beard fetish what fruits do we have from you?
Talk is cheap herr. Easy to wag a finger at a man like Franco never remotely even comming close to what he had to do
How easy
(04-30-2010, 08:16 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]Francos fruits saved his nation. Yes indeed he is a hero for that. Curious what a man like would of done when over half your nation begins to kill priests by the thousands? Pray do tell? Yes by his fruets and what of your fruits? Beside your beard fetish what fruits do we have from you?
Ad hominem arguments are not logical here.

Saved it from what? He is basically banned in modern Spain. That is a stupid thing to say...asking what I've done. Well, I have not taken part in nationalistic behaviour to the detriment of others.

Quote:Talk is cheap herr. Easy to wag a finger at a man like Franco never remotely even comming close to what he had to do
How easy
Yeah, someday I will have a nation ban my image and name...

I do not understand your argument here. Are my understandings of what he has done inaccurate? Then correct them. Do not say such silly things about me. Your arguments here could be used against you to praise Olive Cromwell or some such. The "what have you done?" argument doesn't work. Good and evil are not relative.
saved spain from what mmmmmmmm now thats a stupid question. okay so lest talk about the anarchist cnt-fai herr. read their program titled we fanatics!  lets talk about the poum herr. lets talk about the comintern herr lets talk about the ugt, herr  lets talk about the massive killing of priests and Catholics herr, or the general strikes and assassinations that led up to the revolt. do you even know what went down or do you assume franco and his henchmen just took over?
shall we? if you don't know those acronyms by all means look them up
as for him being banned do you know why?  you seem to have very little knowledge of Spanish history and politics or are playing dumb? being  a nationalist is not anti catholic so if that's your argument why Franco isn't one then your wrong. Catholics are and can be nationalists. i was trying to demonstrate a point which went over your head. not the first time. what would you have done? what do you expect Catholics to do when terror like that begins to eat their nation? hope for the best? give up? don't fight back? what?


i'm not the one saying they are relative? lets talk about the evil then? herr what happened to priests and nuns and churches int he republican zone?
ill wait
oh and im not complaining about cromwell your bitching about Franco
Herr_Mannelig Wrote:He instituted a state religion

Yes, a Catholic Confessional State where every aspect of its laws are conformed to be in accordance with Catholic teachings to the exclusion of any legal recognition of false religions ... and this is a bad thing to you? Secondly to say Franco was a "nominal Catholic" is a gross and laughably ignorant evaluation of Franco's zealous devotion to the Church.

Herr_Mannelig Wrote:Yeah, someday I will have a nation ban my image and name...

How is it that a socialist, pro-infanticide apostate nation banning any mention of its former leader a negative reflection of that leader? Right reasoned logic would dictate that is a reflection of exactly the opposite.
(04-30-2010, 08:53 PM)Joshua Wrote: [ -> ]
Herr_Mannelig Wrote:He instituted a state religion

Yes, a Catholic Confessional State where every aspect of its laws are conformed to be in accordance with Catholic teachings to the exclusion of any legal recognition of false religions ... and this is a bad thing to you? Secondly to say Franco was a "nominal Catholic" is a gross and laughably ignorant evaluation of Franco's zealous devotion to the Church.

Did I say that was a bad thing? Did you read the entire sentence? You quoted a part of a sentence. Here is the full statement:

Quote:He instituted a state religion and banned languages other than Spanish with equal ease.

As you can now see, the statement was showing that a laudable action was just part of a larger campaign, which may not be so laudable. The motivation, I think, for both actions are the same: nationalism and power, not piety.

Herr_Mannelig Wrote:How is it that a socialist, pro-infanticide apostate nation banning any mention of its former leader a negative reflection of that leader? Right reasoned logic would dictate that is a reflection of exactly the opposite.
Again, that was my point! It was claimed:

Quote:Francos fruits saved his nation.

My statement was showing that it only lasted while he was able to maintain power and he saved nothing.
yes he did. if he would not of acted nor the other generals not of acted then million souls would been lost as catholic spain would of ceased in 1933. so the church was able to do what the church does because he and the generals acted. from 1939 to 75 thats allot of souls and further the Church now in spain even under the socialists is in a better situation then it was and would of been had Franco and the generals did nothing which seems to be what your pushing.
yes herr by the fruits!!!
(04-30-2010, 09:40 PM)devotedknuckles Wrote: [ -> ]yes he did. if he would not of acted nor the other generals not of acted then million souls would been lost as catholic spain would of ceased in 1933. so the church was able to do what the church does because he and the generals acted. from 1939 to 75 thats allot of souls and further the Church now in spain even under the socialists is in a better situation then it was and would of been had Franco and the generals did nothing which seems to be what your pushing.
yes herr by the fruits!!!

That is not logical. Whatever good he did did not require the bad.
"By their fruits" can often be twisted to "the ends justify the means."  The two are NOT the same.  "By their fruits" means to see how they act, not the consequence of their actions.  If I act evil but good comes from it, then my fruits are still evil.  "The ends justify the means" focuses on the consequences (the ends) of actions (the means), not the action itself.

I don't know too much about Franco, so I'm not getting into the details of that, but I do want to point out that it seems to me that saying that Franco's actions were justified because of the resultant positive consequence to the Church is not "by their fruits" but "the ends justify the means."  I don't think that the "ends justify the means" belongs in Christianity.  Otherwise we would be praising Judas as the best saint of all, since his evil actions led to the greatest good.  If it weren't for Judas, no souls would be saved...

Finally, whether or not Franco was a daily communicant, had relics, etc, also doesn't justify or excuse actions.  Think of the mafia, who can go to mass, baptisms, opera, whatever, and at the same time order the killing of people simply for power and money, for mammon.  People who murder, torture, or whatever, and at the same time are "devout" Catholics have a much greater condemnation.

Pax,
Jesse
war is hell. sad but true. the church is still in spain now because of franco and the brave generals and the brave Catholics who rose and fought gallantly and defeated the enemy of Christ ie the republican zone the anarchists commies and socialists. this cannot be denied
the socialist who are now in power are nothing compared to the vile ones that where raping nuns and killing priests and burning churches learn your catholic history!!! remember the Alcazar!!!!! the brave stone strong Moscardo who going by you should of just gave up but instead when the vile anarchist captured his son and threatened to shoot him said
"Then commend your soul to God, shout 'Viva Cristo Rey' and die like a hero."!!!!
SANTIAGOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so herr since here you are saying who is a catholic and who isnt was Moscardo a catholic or just a petty man lookin for some kicks?

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